Rystil's Next Game--You Pick!

[Rystil Arden]

Hmmm. If you don't mind me asking, why no love for the 3.5 bard? The 3.0 bard I thought was lacking, but since the 3.5 revisions I've never had a problem with the class. What don't you like?

It's just weak compared to any of the other classes. It tries to be a jack of all trades, but winds up being less useful at any of them than any other class (except if the adventure calls crucially for Bardic Knowledge, which is a neat ability, but that isn't all too often). Give me a party with a Bard, and I can give you a party that is better all-arounf one that doesn't have the Bard. Admittedly, it is a significant advancement from the 3.0 Bard, but it still is very weak.

 

[Eluvan]

Hmmm... okay. I'm inclined to disagree, but... eh, each to their own.

So are you offering house ruled bards in your homebrew game? Or would that one use the standard class?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmmm... okay. I'm inclined to disagree, but... eh, each to their own.

So are you offering house ruled bards in your homebrew game? Or would that one use the standard class?

My Homebrew world uses the standard classes mostly, since the Arthurian classes are balanced with that setting in mind. I have, however, playtested the Troubadour class (onw of several variant Bards I invented) in my Homebrew, and it seems to work well. My face to face players all have Leadership, and one of them once had a Bard cohort because they thought she would be helpful, but they sent her away because she was so useless. They picked up a Troubadour, though, and have been very happy with her.

Edit: And I suppose if someone asked to play a Magician or an Enchantress, I'd definitely allow it. However, that is unlikely because they are arguably a bit weaker than standard Wizards due to being barred to only a few schools

 

[Eluvan]

Hmmm... it's no good, I'm not finding the Troubadour in your House Rule thread. The bare bones of the class are in the Excel spreadsheet with all the classes on it, but without explanation of the special abilities that doesn't do that much good. Do you think you could point me at a full version of the class? I'm intrigued.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, the House Rules thread actually has a different Troubadour I'm not talking about my gestalt Troubadour but instead my non-gestalt Troubadour. I'll put it here in SBLOCKs

[SBLOCK=Troubadour]Troubadour
BAB Ref Fort Will Special
+0 +0 +0 +2 Minne, Minuet
+1 +0 +0 +3 Paean, Requiem
+2 +1 +1 +3 Pastoral, Holy Thre, Madrigal
+3 +1 +1 +4 Unholy Thre, Mambo, Kybele's Thre
+3 +1 +1 +4 Liquefying Thre, Lullaby, Aerial Thre
+4 +2 +2 +5 Operetta, Flame Thre, Bewitching E, Boreal Thre
+5 +2 +2 +5 Spirited E, Electric Thre, Arcane Ballad, Sage E
+6 +2 +2 +6 Mass Lullaby, Andante March, Vivacious E
+6 +3 +3 +6 Prelude, Swift E
+7 +3 +3 +7 Aubade, Finale, Herculean Etude
+8 +3 +3 +7 Holy Carol, Kybele's Carol, Wistful Elegy
+9 +4 +4 +8 Liquefying Carol, Aerial Carol, Flame Carol
+9 +4 +4 +8 Boreal Carol, Electric Carol, Gavotte
+10 +4 +4 +9 Unholy Carol, Capriccio
+11 +5 +5 +9 Eldritch Ballad, Shining Fantasia
+12 +5 +5 +10 Woeful Elegy, Allegro March
+12 +5 +5 +10 Goddess Hymnus
+13 +6 +6 +11 Warding Round
+14 +6 +6 +11 Pegasus Mazurka
+15 +6 +6 +12 Maiden's Virelai

Hit Dice: 1d6
Skill Points: 4+Int Bonus (Use Bard skill list)

Melodies once per day per Troubadour level (Only one melody per Troubadour can affect the same creature at a single time)-
Guardian Minne: DR 1/-, + 1/- per 5 levels
Carnage Minuet: +1 Morale Bonus to Melee Damage, + 1 per 5 levels
Healing Paean: Fast Healing 1, + 1 per 5 levels
Discordant Requiem: Enemy takes 1 Damage / round + 1 per 5 levels until she saves
Herb Pastoral: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Poison, Immunity to Poison at 10
Threnodys: Weakness 2 vs element and -1 to saves vs school + Weakness 2 and - 1 saves per 5 levels (Holy = Positive Energy and Abjuration, Unholy = Negative Energy and Necromancy, Kybele's = Earth/Acid and Divination, Liquefying = Water and Transmutation, Aerial = Air and Conjuration, Flame = Fire and Enchantment, Boreal = Ice and Illusion, Electric = Electricity and Evocation)
Precise Madrigal: +1 Morale Bonus to Melee Attacks, +1 per 5 levels
Evasive Mambo: +1 Morale Bonus to AC, +1 per 5 levels
Lullaby: As the Sleep spell, but one target only
Intransigent Operetta: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Compulsions, Immunity to Compulsion at 15
Etudes: +2 Morale Bonus to Stat, +2 per 10 levels (Bewitching = Charisma, Spirited = Wisdom, Sage = Intelligence, Vivacious = Constitution, Swift = Dexterity, Herculean = Strength)
Arcane Ballad: Enchantresses count spells as 1 level lower for Channeling, Magicians get +4 to Strength and Constitution of summoned creatures, Necromancers get +4 to Strength and +2 hp/HD of their undead, Witches may have two of the participants in a coven use each spell before it fades, and Wizards may substitute any memorised spell for any spell in one of his spellbooks he can browse through as a full-round action
Mass Lullaby: As the Deep Slumber spell, multiple targets allowed
Andante March: Allies gain an extra Move-Equivalent Action per round
Archer's Prelude: +1 Morale Bonus to Ranged Attack and Damage, +1 per 5 levels
Vigilant Aubade: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Sleep, Immunity to Sleep at 15
Dispelling Finale: Dispels spells active on an opponent
Carols: Resistance 2 vs element and +1 to saves vs school, + Res 2 and + 1 saves per 5 levels (same correspondance as Threnody)
Wistful Elegy: Affected opponent is limited to one partial action per round
Freedom Gavotte: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Paralysis, Immunity to Paralysis at 20
Calcification Capriccio: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Petrification, Immunity to Petrification at 20
Eldritch Ballad: Enchantresses count spells as 2 level lower for Channeling, Magicians get +8 to Strength and Constitution of summoned creatures, Necromancers get +8 to Strength and +4 hp/HD of their undead, Witches may have all three of the participants in a coven use each spell before it fades, and Wizards may substitute any memorised spell for any spell he has learned as a move-equivalent action
Shining Fantasia: +4 Morale Bonus to saves against Level Drain and Death Effects, Immunity to Level Drain and Death Effects at 20
Woeful Elegy: Affected opponent is limited to one move-equivalent action per round
Allegro March: Allies gain an extra partial action per round
Goddess Hymnus: Allies' hit point total remains at 1 or above unless a blow would knock them dead, in which case they become unconscious but stabilised one hit point above death, with the excess damage taken as nonlethal damage
Warding Round: Allies gain SR 10, + 5 per 5 levels
Pegasus Mazurka: Allies gain a flight speed equal to twice their base movement speed
Maiden's Virelai: As the Dominate Monster spell[/SBLOCK]

 

[Eluvan]

Oooooh that looks *very* cool.

I absolutely love the way the troubadour gets so many different, interesting and unique songs. That's a really nice mechanic. I do believe you've got me sold on that one! Character concepts are forming fast.

Few questions that spring immediately to mind; how many of those abilities rely on concentration, how many can be maintained as a free action once started, and how many persist (I assume for 5 rounds, like some bardic music) once the troubadour stops singing? Do the debuffing abilities allow SR? And... I assume the sleep-like abilities are free of HD restrictions?

Oh, and incidentally I'm going to bed now, so I'll stop monopolising your time with my incessant questions.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oooooh that looks *very* cool.

I absolutely love the way the troubadour gets so many different, interesting and unique songs. That's a really nice mechanic. I do believe you've got me sold on that one! Character concepts are forming fast.

Few questions that spring immediately to mind; how many of those abilities rely on concentration, how many can be maintained as a free action once started, and how many persist (I assume for 5 rounds, like some bardic music) once the troubadour stops singing? Do the debuffing abilities allow SR? And... I assume the sleep-like abilities are free of HD restrictions?

Oh, and incidentally I'm going to bed now, so I'll stop monopolising your time with my incessant questions.

Glad you like it

All of them require a move action to concentrate, and they last 3 rounds after concentration ends (which can be increased to 6 by a feat). Any single target can only be affected by one song from a particular Troubadour at a time (but there's a feat to allow virtuostic Troubadours to carry multiple tunes between their instrument and their voice, allowing targets to be affected by two songs at once. The feats for Lingering Song, Twin Songs, and Extra Songs (which gives +Cha modifier Songs per day) are typically favourites of the Troubadour.

The debuffing effects do not allow SR except for the Sleep effects, but the others have an initial chance to resist and then a chance each round for it not to affect them. The sleep abilities have HD restrictions, but those restrictions raise as the Troubadour increases in level.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Well, if Eluvan's finally done with your time ... <- @ Eluvan

I am still very interested in the homebrew. What books do you allow? I have all the complete and core, plus XPH (which isn't going to be a big help anyways... ) and the BoED. I tend to really enjoy playing good alignments - I'm assuming that's alright as well.

Since my psi warrior was shot down in a burning heap of flames ... how about I pitch a few ideas at you:

1. CG Warlock (If you allow them). Motivated by the evil of his (or her) father and his (or her) father's father - he (or she) feels the need to reinstate the family name. In combat, the character prefers ranged combat through the use of Eldritch Spear. Out of combat is where the character tries to shine beyond the eldritch spear as most of the characters invocations are non-combat oriented.

2. [If you prefer Core options] A NG druidess who has grown to tolerate civilization when she has to but absolutely enjoys the wild/underworld. She's really into mustelids - ferrets, badgers, etc. She is game for anything that means twarting threats to the land and even the people in it.

3. [If someone is into making a cooperative background] I'd be happy to work up my part of a pairing headed for the nightsong enforcer/infiltrator combo. Or, for that matter the shadowbane pairing rocks as well. I'm not as keen on the daggerspell stuff, but if I had a partner who really got into it I'd explore it. Of course, that would require DM's approval and Complete Adventurer.

4. I'd be game to work up a non-theiving rogue. In other words, a diplomacy/spying master. This character would most likely be half-elven if allowed. Very attractive ... and unafraid to mix business with pleasure.

If none of those get your attention, I can come up with more. [Edit: Given the "dark cults" and "conspiracies" part of the homebrew I am most interested in options 3 or 4 ... but I'll play any of them]

Let me know!

 

[Rystil Arden]

OK--let me get to all of these:

What books do you allow?

In my homebrew, things work a little differently than in my Gestalt setting (I say this for the benefit of the people from my other games who have gotten used to my rules from those games). I generally allow most things from WotC books (except Complete Divine, or as I like to call it, Completely Broken ). Tell me what non-core stuff you're using in a character, and I'll usually say yes. Even setting-specific stuff from other settings, except I don't have Shifters or Warforged from Eberron. I'll build in PrCs too to make them work.

I tend to really enjoy playing good alignments - I'm assuming that's alright as well.

I like Good alignments, and I usually play them too, but I've been known to allow Evil characters too. Notably, a LN Elf Wizard who turned to the service of evil was one of the main PCs in my Face to Face version of this game. The other part members told him not to summon an Imp to learn what the cult was doing, but he insisted that it was for the Greater Good, and he continued to fall from there

1. CG Warlock (If you allow them). Motivated by the evil of his (or her) father and his (or her) father's father - he (or she) feels the need to reinstate the family name. In combat, the character prefers ranged combat through the use of Eldritch Spear. Out of combat is where the character tries to shine beyond the eldritch spear as most of the characters invocations are non-combat oriented.

Sounds cool. I definitely allow Warlocks, and I have one similar to your build myself (My Eberron character Rayni is a Chaotic Good 'Evil Death Warlock' who wants to be friends with people but can't control the darkness within. Her first invocation was Beguiling Influence). I've also seen a Magician played in this world with this sort of redemptive background to good effect.

[If you prefer Core options]

Core stuff is cool, but I would refuse to join a game even if it was being GMed by Monte Cook or some other industry notable if it was core only, so no need to worry there

2: A NG druidess who has grown to tolerate civilization when she has to but absolutely enjoys the wild/underworld. She's really into mustelids - ferrets, badgers, etc. She is game for anything that means twarting threats to the land and even the people in it.

Hey, Mustelids are definitely cool! Dire Weasel Con Drain can be dangerous, and I allow that cutest of Mustelids, the Mink, as a Wizard Familiar that gives +3 Diplomacy.

3. [If someone is into making a cooperative background] I'd be happy to work up my part of a pairing headed for the nightsong enforcer/infiltrator combo. Or, for that matter the shadowbane pairing rocks as well. I'm not as keen on the daggerspell stuff, but if I had a partner who really got into it I'd explore it. Of course, that would require DM's approval and Complete Adventurer.

This'll work too if you can get a buddy.

4. I'd be game to work up a non-theiving rogue. In other words, a diplomacy/spying master. This character would most likely be half-elven if allowed. Very attractive ... and unafraid to mix business with pleasure.

That's a fun archetype. There is an NPC that has a similar build to this that the party in Face to Face managed to convince to join the party, but it's always good to have lots of Rogues. When they started, they had 0 Rogues, and they had loads of fun, including one time they were breaking in somewhere that they invented the 'Dwarven Lockpick' and 'Dwarven Trap Disarmer', both of which involve using axes

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I generally allow most things from WotC books (except Complete Divine, or as I like to call it, Completely Broken ). Tell me what non-core stuff you're using in a character, and I'll usually say yes. Even setting-specific stuff from other settings, except I don't have Shifters or Warforged from Eberron. I'll build in PrCs too to make them work.

Complete Divine Broken? Are you nuts? It's not too bad in small doses. Kinda like Complete Adventurer, too. But you are right - there are some things to watch out for. Thankfully, I've not had a player yet try to really abuse the broken parts.

Hey, Mustelids are definitely cool! Dire Weasel Con Drain can be dangerous, and I allow that cutest of Mustelids, the Mink, as a Wizard Familiar that gives +3 Diplomacy.

Yeah, my two ferrets that sit about 3 feet from my computer are definately my muses....

That's a fun archetype.

I've not played one of these in a long time. Here's where I stand - assuming you let me play and assuming you run the homebrew or some other game that sounds interesting where the concept works. I'm thinking of going for the half-elf rogue build as first choice. However, if someone comes along and really wants to go with the cooperative background and do a pairing from Complete Adventurer that'd be a quick second choice.

Just so I can start thinking about it - did I miss how character creation is done or is it too soon to be thinking about that type of stuff?