S/Z: On the Difficulties of RPG Theory & Criticism

hawkeyefan

Legend
I wasn't online discussing RPGs in the days when the Forge was an active thing, and I've only come to know about it years after the fact. I'm sure a lot of time there was spent in circular arguments and debate, and that very often the process was frustrating and cumbersome and seemingly pointless.

But, knowing what I know now, and even not being a huge fan of all the theories that came out of the Forge, dismissing its importance seems odd.
 

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prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I wasn't online discussing RPGs in the days when the Forge was an active thing, and I've only come to know about it years after the fact. I'm sure a lot of time there was spent in circular arguments and debate, and that very often the process was frustrating and cumbersome and seemingly pointless.

But, knowing what I know now, and even not being a huge fan of all the theories that came out of the Forge, dismissing its importance seems odd.

Same here on the timing of my attention. And I agree: Even if you think the Forge was somewhere between misdirected and wrong, it seems difficult to deny its importance.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I might not ascribe to Forge theory generally (it's a bit of mess taken as a whole), but there's no denying the enormous impact it had on RPG design. For example, PbtA might not be a product of Forge theory, but it came out of a design process that started with Forge theory and ended up somewhere else.
 

Aldarc

Legend
The actual theoretical output for the Forge is definitely questionable. But that is ALWAYS the case when it comes to theoretical frameworks for abstract things. How many hundreds of years did people in human history apple the theoretical frameworks of Aristotle and Plato despite evidence to the contrary?

However, discussion surrounding and in the Forge did generate a lot of innovations to RPGs. Some of the most influential games have come out of this Think Tank. These may not have been the games that the most players were playing, but they were often games that other designers were taking note of. Likewise, those who often felt the recipients of the Forge's scorn (e.g., certain types of D&D players) were unquestionably influenced by the Forge. IMHO, part of the success of the Old School Renaissance movement came from taking the criticism of the Forge seriously and responding in kind to the validity (or lack thereof) of those criticisms. It spurred the OSR to find the language to talk about its game philosophy and the intentionality of its game design.

I don't exactly think it's some sort of coincidence that there is actually a lot of design, brain-power, and play overlap between the indie story games and the indie OSR movement, a point that probably people in the latter category would likely not want to admit. This is one reason why I am attracted to a number of OSR and OSR-inspired games as well as the story/character-focused indie games (e.g., Fate, Dungeon World/PbtA, Blades in the Dark, etc.). These games often have much a clearer design focus regarding their intended play experience than many mainstream games (e.g., 5e D&D).

If the Forge succeeded at nothing else, it pushed us to think about how we talk about TTRPG design and play.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
But, knowing what I know now, and even not being a huge fan of all the theories that came out of the Forge, dismissing its importance seems odd.

Slightly glib, but demonstrative of the position...

The mullet was an incredibly important hairstyle in its day - it influenced jewelry design, clothing style - all things fashion were influenced by the mullet.

"Importance" is not an unambiguous measure of quality.

Or maybe I should use The Great Depression as an example. Incredibly important moment in history. Some excellent things (say, in the world of music) came out of it. It shaped the world, and does to this day. That does not mean it was a good thing that we'd want to do.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Slightly glib, but demonstrative of the position...

The mullet was an incredibly important hairstyle in its day - it influenced jewelry design, clothing style - all things fashion were influenced by the mullet.

"Importance" is not an unambiguous measure of quality.

Fair enough.

Now imagine that someone back in the day walked around to salons and said "I don't see the point in trying new styles and in talking about style choice."

We might never have had the mullet.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Fair enough.

Now imagine that someone back in the day walked around to salons and said "I don't see the point in trying new styles and in talking about style choice."

Okay. I'm imagining that. Now, who is saying something analogous to that here? Maybe I missed it in the morass.
 



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