Same rules or different Rules (PC vs NPC)

Different, but it needs to appear from the outside that they are the same.

In other words, I need a 'wizard' monster to seem like the same sort of 'thing' as a PC wizard; it should use recognizable spells that are available to a PC wizard, otherwise I feel like very large cracks are left in immersion. It can be way simpler in terms of how you actually calculate their bonuses, etc., but it needs to look like a wizard.
 

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Different.

4E got it right in concept, though you could do very different things in 5E with the same idea.

If a monster ever says "casts spells as a 16th level wizard" and then I have to look up said spells in the PHB one at a time, I'm out as a DM.
 

I find it telling that the people expressing the most views are 4E players. Nothing wrong with this. It might be because those of us who stuck with earlier versions prior to 4E have already gone through this?

I'm looking forward to what they come up with, but I'm not holding my breath.

I hope it is groundbreaking. It will literally take that for me to spend any more money on D&D. I'll stick with 3.5.
 

The rules should permit PCs to do anything NPCs can do and the reverse as well.

Makes sense.

I would LOVE to see a better mousetrap. If you can build an even easier system than what I have now and still have every bit of the MECHANICAL richness built in then I'll happily embrace it. I consider that wishful thinking. Until demonstrated to the contrary my answer here presumes more simple comes with a cost in value in exchange for zero added value *to me*.

That's cool, I'm just wondering what you feel you would lose in the exchange. Any examples?

Why do the players need to know? Isn't "Steel covering the entire body, with few weak points" everything they need?

I like lots of different ways of getting there as well. If your Dex 10 Full plate guy is 18 the exact same guy except DEX 12 is 19. And the mage armor 18 dex guy is also 18. Not clear from what you said if you were leaving that out by design or not.

If the players know it enables them to make informed decisions. I think that's pretty important. That's why, while I don't mind a few ways of getting to AC 18, I don't think there should be too many modifiers.

Sounds like there is a huge difference here. Characters in stories don't choose between the troll with a bag of 750 gp or the 7 orcs with a bag of 500 gp or a the necromancer with a magic sword.

If the troll is eating kids from the village the party goes out to kill the troll.

Even if the campaign is a pure "bounty hunter" thing, it seems irrational to me that there would not be uncertainty on rewards for known foes and then unexpected challenges that along the way. And this gets back to #1 anyway. Even if there were clearly defined "bounties" those should be 100% narrative based and not be even a consideration in mechanical design.

Yup, big difference. I wonder if it's possible to make the reward system (ie. how the situation - setting and characters - changes in response to the choices the players make) do both of what we want.

That's why I think those bounties you mention should be based on mechanical design - in order to reward risk, you will need some way of 1) allowing the DM to judge risk and 2) determining what the proper reward is. Since the rewards are going to feed back into the characters, I think it has to be a feature of mechanical design; do you want to change the PCs so they can take on more risk or integrate them with the "story" more? Can you do both? Possibly, I guess.
 

I'll add my bit.

Before 4e came out I was a big fan of the unified character/NPC creation in 3.5, even though it took a lot of time as DM. I enjoyed the character building game on its own, and the unified method really helped me engage with the setting.

When 4e came out, imagine my surprise as I eventually grew to really appreciate the ease of creating monsters, enough to prefer it despite deeply wanting to like the unified method more.

For me, therefore, 5e should help the DM accomplish what they want in the time that they are willing or able to spend while sacrificing as little world consistency as possible. Therefore, like others I'd like to see quick guidelines that get one in the right ballpark fast, a slightly more detailed version akin to 4e, and a full-blown build-from-scratch system.

I would step back from 4e a little bit because of how wonderful 3.5 made building creatures feel to me when I didn't hate how long it took. I don't think basic consistency must be sacrificed, however. Instead, what should be lost is detail. A reasonable test might be if one could in principle swap out a monster for a PC and keep the party trucking without rule contradictions or undefined/inapplicable terms. So monsters use the same health system as PCs, NPC wizards (whether carefully detailed or not) cast the same spells as NPCs, and so on. They just do these things with far fewer knobs, unless the knobs are desired.

I think of it as monsters and NPCs coming into focus: in the game world, the only "confirmed" knowledge the PCs have of an adversary is what they can see or hear for themselves. In other words, the quick and dirty methods don't necessarily define a creature's abilities, they lay a boundary around our ignorance. I think this is a rather more empowering notion for monsters. For example, suppose an NPC wizard is created on the fly and given 3 spells. The assumption isn't that he knows 3 spells, it's that only those 3 spells were relevant in this instance. Later on this hastily-made NPC might makes a more fleshed-out appearance, but only if the DM wants that. And if 5e has different dials for PC detail, the same reasoning holds for all its settings. For example, if all PCs in some game have the lowest level of detail then in that case monsters with the correspondingly low level of detail may in fact completely specify the mechanics of that monster.

As I see it this enables the DM to make stuff up on the fly or detail monsters beforehand, license (and tools!) to change things later, all while maintaining mechanical consistency with the fundamental PC rules and conceptual consistency with the setting.

I also think there is a role for something like the very helpful minor, standard, elite, solo categories, despite their departure from my basic stance. I certainly wouldn't want to withhold those tools from other DMs, but I might repurpose them slightly. In particular, I think the defining mark of the elite or solo creature isn't its raw toughness, but in how it interacts with the action economy. (Early 4e solos were poor in this regard, but eventually MM3 moved in this direction.) I would eliminate elite and solo for humans and other mundane races, and reserve it for creatures that by their nature or very special circumstances can simply do more. Dragons, spellweavers, ettins, aboleths, beholders, hydras, etc. Those creatures might have large attacks and defenses, but what sets them apart is that they mock the idea of 1 action per round. In my opinion this makes counting them as multiple creatures when designing encounters more intuitive than in 4e, and more evenly handles questions about when a creature should be a elite/solo or just very high level.
 

I will take 4e monsters and design along with a punch to the face than 3e monsters and design any day of the week. IMO 4e was 10 times better in that regard .
 

Same rules. However, there should be a quick and dirty creation method that achieves nearly the same mechanics while, at the same time, being much cheaper to implement (time-wise).

You are all aware that the stated goal of 5e is allowing different players to play the same game at different dials of complexity? Why would NPCs differ in this regard? When you need quick NPC mooks, just use complexity dial 0; when you need a BBEG, turn the dial up to 3 or 4 to make him just as awesomely detailed as the PCs.
 

I find it telling that the people expressing the most views are 4E players. Nothing wrong with this. It might be because those of us who stuck with earlier versions prior to 4E have already gone through this?

I'm looking forward to what they come up with, but I'm not holding my breath.

I hope it is groundbreaking. It will literally take that for me to spend any more money on D&D. I'll stick with 3.5.

Gone through what?
 

I like having different rules, but I believe the two different branches of rules (PC & NPC) should interact with the 'physics engine' of the game world in a consistent way. How PCs and NPCs interact with the numbers and math which construct the game world should be the same -even if they're built using pieces which aren't 100% the same.
 


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