Sammael's 3.75: Skills

[Sammael]

Due to some demand, I decided to create a new thread devoted to my skill system. I'll try to explain the rationale behind it (and believe me, a lot of thought and work was put it in), and why it works for me. As always, YMMV.

CAPSULE

In a nutshell, my system presents 28 separate, condensed skills, each with multiple uses in different situations. Every skill is equally important! Skills also serve to replace the Base Attack Bonus, along with Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.

Skills are not tied to particular abilities (which I will call "attributes" in the text).

Like before, each skill has a rating. Skill checks are the same as in regular d20: roll d20, add all skill modifiers, compare to DC.

REFERENCES

Although I do have the system laid out on my wiki, I am hesitant to post the links because they contain some stuff which is not OGL. For now, here are the old threads I used to discuss the system:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-house-rules/229489-skills-revisited.html

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/248394-help-me-rename-these-skills.html

NATURE OF THE SYSTEM

It is slightly more abstract (and, thus, more gamist, less simulationist; there, we got that out of the way) than the default 3.5 system, as it makes an assumption that one skill can cover sometimes vastly different applications.

The fact that BAB and the three saves are gone is likely shocking for some, but I personally find it very liberating. The system is fairly balanced, but DMs with players who are avid powergamers should probably impose additional restrictions (particularly if their campaigns are very combat-oriented).

Since skills are not tied to attributes, each time the skill check is made, the DM makes the call which attribute should be combined with the skill rating. This was lifted straight out of World of Darkness, although it bears mentioning that the original 3.0 DMG also suggested to sometimes use alternate prime abilities when making skill checks.

THE SKILLS

I made up 4 categories to make the skill list more manageable, but the categories themselves aren't really that important. Sometimes, other parts of the system will make a reference to something like "you gains a bonus to all Lore skills," but that's about it. The four categories are symmetrical. I like symmetry. I also like pie. Mmmm... pie...

The categories are as follows:

Adventuring Skills

• Crafting: ability to create, repair, and appraise items (excluding mechanical items)
• Deftness: hand-eye coordination, ability to manipulate fine objects
• Delving: ability to survive underground; knowledge of stones, minerals, dungeons, and their denizens
• Healing: ability to evaluate and treat injuries
• Perception: ability to notice things
• Survival: ability to survive in nature
• Tinkering: ability to create, repair, and dismantle mechanical items (including traps and locks)

Lore Skills

• Arcana: knowledge of the inner workings of magic and magic creatures
• Earthlore: knowledge of the Material plane and its native fauna and flora
• Heraldry: knowledge of history, etiquette, and nobility
• Linguistics: knowledge of languages and writing
• Netherlore: knowledge of planes and exemplars (outsiders)
• Theology: knowledge of religion and associated traditions
• Warcraft: knowledge of war, tactics, and strategy

Physical Skills

• Acrobatics: ability to balance, climb, evade, and tumble
• Athletics: ability to jump, run, swim, and ride
• Brawl: ability to use your natural weapons in combat to punch, kick, bite, and wrestle with opponents
• Endurance: ability to endure hardships and survive diseases and poisons
• Marksmanship: ability to use long-range weapons
• Melee: ability to use close-range weapons
• Stealth: ability to move around undetected

Social Skills

• Deception: ability to lie, cheat, swindle, and create disguises
• Expression: ability to express yourself (verbally, visually, by means of a music instrument)
• Insight: ability to read others and empathize
• Intimidation: ability to force others to do what you want
• Persuasion: ability to convince others to do what you want
• Resolve: ability to remain focused and shrug off mental attacks
• Streetwise: ability to survive in urban areas and figure out their workings

GAINING SKILLS

Each character will start with a number of small (but ever so significant) inherent and competency bonuses.

Furthermore, your starting class provides you with a number of affiliated skills (e.g. the Fighter gains Athletics, Brawl, Crafting, Endurance, Healing, Intimidation, Marksmanship, Melee, Survival, and Warcraft as affiliated skills). At 1st level and every odd level thereafter, you can improve a number of affiliated skills equal to 6 + your Intelligence modifier by one rank.

You can gain additional affiliated skills through multiclassing (although you only gain one new affiliated skill from your new class, or two if you are human).

At 2nd level, and every even level thereafter, your base bonus increases by 1. The base bonus applies to all skills. This means that you cannot have a 20th level character who is absolutely incompetent in something; at the very least, he will have a +10 bonus - not much (at 20th level), but certainly better than nothing.

There are also several feats which grant additional skill afiliations and/or ranks.

BONUS TYPES

The number of bonus types in the game is severely limited. For skills, this means the following:

• Base bonus (equal to level/2), built into every character
• Rating (equal to the number of ranks)
• Inherent bonus (hereditary)
• Competence bonus (stuff learned before becoming a player character)
• Equipment bonus (+1 for good equipment, or +2 for amazing equipment)
• Magic bonus (gained from a spell)

That should be enough to start with...

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I haven't really gotten around to an in-depth reading of what you've posted, here. But I just wanted to say that I too, like pie.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I haven't really gotten around to an in-depth reading of what you've posted, here. But I just wanted to say that I too, like pie.

Thanks for posting this.
It'll take a little while to digest, but at first glance it looks like a very well considered system!

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Color me interested.

I've recently been considering skills again, and wondering whether folding in BAB and Initiative can be viable, so I'm intrigued with what you've come up with.

I've also been considering dropping all ability bonuses to skills; this seems the only way to make BAB foldable and avoiding runaway bonuses to skills. I assume you're dropping synergy bonuses too? No Skill Focus? No +2/+2 Feats?

I also like pie. And symmetry.

 

[Sammael]

Initiative is, at the moment, an Acrobatics + Wis check (Acrobatics represents your Reflexes, Wis represents your instincts). It seems to be working fine.

I ran a series of tests to see how the system would work without ability bonuses, and it doesn't really match up; the DCs would have to be reduced dramatically. Right now, I'm reducing all regular skill DCs by 3 (to represent the fact that your typical skill bonus is no longer "level + 3," just "level"), and, again, it seems to be working fine.

Synergy bonuses between skills (as they were in 3.x) are out. I do have synergies, but they work differently (for example, each rank in Perception increases your range increment for ranged weapons by 10%). I'll list all synergies when I have more time.

Skill Focus is there, but it grants a competence bonus (+2 to 1 skill or +1 to 2 skills). All the specific +2/+2 feats are gone (well, not really gone, but altered dramatically; for instance, Alertness give you the ability to roll twice to notice sneaking opponents and take the greater of two values; Diligent gives you a +1 bonus on retried skill checks and +2 when you take 20; Improved Initiative switches your initiative with the next higher, and so on).

All in all, the total skill bonuses (for characters who invest in skills) should be 5-15 points lower than in default 3.5. For instance, in my long-lasting 3.5 campaign, I had a rogue with an ungodly bonus to Hide and Move Silently:

+23 (ranks) +3 (Skill Focus) +2 (Stealthy) +10 (Dex) +6 (equipment) +4 (size) +2 (luck) = +50 (unbuffed)

Using the new system above, he could have (at most):

+10 (base bonus) +10 (ranks) +2 (competence) +1 (inherent) +2 (equipment) +8 (Dex) = +33 (and he couldn't get more than +2 more from buffs).

Still a very high bonus, but nevertheless more manageable. Dex is lower because you can't start with more than +4 in any attribute, there are no magic items that raise attributes, and there is a total of 4 attribute increases (by +1 effectively). Of course, that's assuming he'd put all attribute increases in Dex, which is unlikely.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Initiative is, at the moment, an Acrobatics + Wis check (Acrobatics represents your Reflexes, Wis represents your instincts). It seems to be working fine.

That would work, if you're folding in Saves as well. I've used Reflex save + Wis for Initiative before. It makes a lot of sense. I'd probably drop the Improved Initiative feat altogether; it's always been a no-brainer for me anyway, although other people have different experiences of it. [edit]: see below

I ran a series of tests to see how the system would work without ability bonuses, and it doesn't really match up; the DCs would have to be reduced dramatically. Right now, I'm reducing all regular skill DCs by 3 (to represent the fact that your typical skill bonus is no longer "level + 3," just "level"), and, again, it seems to be working fine.

I think you'd have to allow (max skill ranks = level+3) if you're going to drop ability modifiers altogether. 4 skill ranks is functionally equivalent to a 1st level character with an affiliated skill and a +3 ability modifier in your system.

I find the rationale for divorcing ability score modifiers from skill checks pretty compelling, as virtually every human action relies on any number of different faculties operating simultaneously. Those that don't (e.g. smashing down doors) can remain simple ability checks.

I've considered limiting the number of skill ranks which a character can possess in a given skill to its governing score, instead: e.g. a character with an 8 Int cannot have more than 8 ranks in Craft; a character with 12 Cha cannot have more than 12 ranks in Diplomacy etc. This resembles the maximum spell level/governing ability mechanic.
[It also suggests a limitation due to native ability, which is difficult to transcend (you have to raise the governing score before you can raise the skill rank further). This might run counter to a lot of people's implicit game philosophy.]

Synergy bonuses between skills (as they were in 3.x) are out. I do have synergies, but they work differently (for example, each rank in Perception increases your range increment for ranged weapons by 10%). I'll list all synergies when I have more time.

This sounds intriguing.

Improved Initiative switches your initiative with the next higher, and so on.

[edit]: Just caught that.

... +50 (unbuffed)

...+33 (and he couldn't get more than +2 more from buffs).

That's a reasonable working cap. I look forward to more.

 

[Sylrae]

I'd love to see the in-depth version of these rules. They look quite interesting.

Also, they seem to make the game more like WoD in terms of character options.

I'm not sure about folding in BAB and Saves. I'm thinking if you do that you need to turn the game classless, but I'm open to at least seeing a new system.

Also, your changes look interesting, if nothing else I'd like to read them just for the reading.

~Sylrae

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm not sure about folding in BAB and Saves. I'm thinking if you do that you need to turn the game classless

There's more to classes than BAB and Saves. ... Not a lot more, but more.

HP. This is huge and almost justifies distinct classes by itself.
Special features and abilities (DR, Spell casting, etc.). Combined with HP, this does fully justify distinct classes.
Class skills. Altered but still relevant.


Since no mention has been made of about any of these points, we must assume that they still apply.

 

[Sylrae]

Damn computer crashed in mid post.

OK.

There is more to a class than saves, init, and bab, but the way you changed those things changes all the balancing efforts between classes (unless you account for it somehow)

Rogues gain the potential to suddenly be the most powerful melee character ever.

Fighters have to choose between being able to fight or being able to do ANYTHING else.

it just seems to have some issues, which is why I said a classless system may be the way to go if youre looking for everything to fit in with your skill system. If you took all these things into account some other way that could work too.

Random Thoughts: Some of the abilities seem less trained/learned, and more natural, which to me means they shouldnt be based on purchased skills, but either just on attributes or attribute + level.

Initiative: This one could go either way, but I'd probably think Somehow based on Dex + Wis (Instincts)

Fort: Based on Con
Ref: Based on Dex
Will: Based on Cha(Force of character makes more sense than instincts/life experience/practical knowledge for willpower).

BAB as skills I think works, but as mentioned, throws off the old class design.

Skill Points: Not that I expect you to use this, but it seems quasi relevent, so I'll post it in case you like it.
Skills come from a combination of Smarts and Experience, and their application is often influenced by good instincts as well.
Therefore, to determine skill points, you use Both your Int and Wis Modifiers, added together. Since the standard class skill bonus per level bonuses will inflate what you get with this idea in mind, decrease the bonus from the class as such:
(1/2 Bonus)+1.
Giving you skill totals of:
2-fighter,3-ranger,4-bard,5-rogue

You may want to go classless for your system though, and that could yield a cool system.

I've looked at a few d20 classless systems, and all of them I havent thought were well designed. But a classless system COULD be well designed, and quite usable. Possibly even better than classes, as it could give you exactly the character you want (WoD works like this).

 

[Sammael]

To address a few issues:

1. All characters, regardless of class, now receive (effectively) 6+Int skill points at every odd level (but they may not increase any skill by more than 1 rank). This was done mainly to fix multiclassing issues, but also to address the fact that some classes, like the Fighter, had too little stuff to do outside of combat. If the fighter purchases all 3 combat skills (Brawl, Marksmanship, Melee) as well as Endurance (which replaces Fort), he is left with 2+Int skill points, as before. But really, I don't think any fighter should purchase all four all the time.

2. Here are the class affiliated skill lists:

• Bard: Acrobatics, Arcana, Crafting, Deception, Deftness, Expression, Heraldry, Insight, Linguistics, Perception, Persuasion, Resolve, Streetwise, Theology
• Champion: Athletics, Crafting, Endurance, Healing, Heraldry, Insight, Intimidation, Melee, Persuasion, Resolve, Theology, Warcraft
• Cleric: Crafting, Healing, Heraldry, Insight, Netherlore, Persuasion, Resolve, Theology, plus two deity-appropriate skills
• Druid: Brawl, Crafting, Delving, Earthlore, Endurance, Healing, Perception, Resolve, Survival, Theology
• Fighter: Athletics, Brawl, Crafting, Endurance, Healing, Intimidation, Marksmanship, Melee, Survival, Warcraft
• Mage: Arcana, Crafting, Earthlore, Heraldry, Linguistics, Netherlore, Resolve, Theology, Tinkering, plus one specialization-related skill
• Ranger: Acrobatics, Athletics, Brawl, Crafting, Delving, Earthlore, Endurance, Healing, Marksmanship, Melee, Perception, Survival, Stealth
• Rogue: Acrobatics, Athletics, Crafting, Deception, Deftness, Delving, Insight, Intimidation, Linguistics, Perception, Persuasion, Stealth, Streetwise, Tinkering

3. I strongly disagree with the premise that BAB, saves, and HP make a class. I think the class abilities are what makes the class, and I have redesigned all classes to reinforce that fact. All classes now gain unique abilities a lot more frequently than before, and the spectrum of those abilities is a lot wider than before. Of course, without seeing my classes, you have no way of knowing how they work (there will be a separate thread for that), but I'll try to recap them briefly here:

• Bard gets spellsongs (3 tiers, usable at will), a warlock-like sonic blast power, and various sonic and lore-based abilities.
• Champion gets pledges (4 tiers, one or more active at the time, basically various ways to boost his weapon), smite, and auras.
• Cleric gets prayers specific to deity (5 domains, 2 prayers per tier per domain, 10 tiers), divine channelings (ability to convert prepared prayers into specific effects), resistance to all forms of damage, and bonuses to attack with deity's favored weapon. He loses medium/heavy armor proficiencies and his HD is reduced.
• Druid gets wild shape from level 1 (but greatly reduced in power), invocations (10 tiers, limited knowledge, spontaneous casting), and animal companion.
• Fighter gets fighting style, maneuvers (former fighter feats, now exclusive* to fighter), ability to craft trophies, and various minor abilities. This is the only class proficient with all weapons and armor.
• Mage gets spells (10 tiers, unlimited knowledge, limited preparation, but can cast any combination of prepared spells per day; spells are somewhat reduced in power), metamagic, ability to combine slots, and signature spells.
• Ranger gets exploits (various movement-based attack abilities), skirmish, animal companion, and monster slayer abilities based on type of monsters defeated.
• Rogue gets tricks (former rogue special abilities, and many more), sneak attack, and bonus skill-related feats (allowing him to gain more affiliated skills, gain a sudden skill boost, etc).

*All class abilities are exclusive until level 6, when all characters gain the ability to pick up a limited amount of abilities outside of class through feats ("multiclassing lite"). Of course, multiclassing still allows you to mix'n'match from level 2, as before.

So, what happens if a rogue picks up Skill Affinity (Melee)? Yes, he becomes better at hitting people (at the cost of some other skill), but he doesn't get the fighter's maneuvers, champion's pledge's, or ranger's exploits. So, rogue + Melee = brigand. Similarly, a fighter who picks up Arcana will gain a few cantrips (1 per rank), but that hardly makes him a mage. Fighter who takes Acrobatics instead of Endurance? Swashbuckler. And so on, and so forth. The number of classes is limited, but the possibilities are endless.

I do have 2 playtest campaigns and I'm making some changes as we go, but I feel that the skill system is the most solid framework I've developed and I don't think I'm going to change it any time soon...