D&D 4E Sandbox game: should I 4e?

[cr0m]

I'm going to start up a sandbox game, modeled very closely on the West Marches game at Ars Ludi. It's nothing terribly pressing--I could start now as an alternate to our regular 3.5e game or I could start in a couple of months when the guy DMing the regular game is finished.

Today the players asked me if I was going to run it 3.5e or 4e and I hadn't even considered 4e, just because I haven't got the books, etc. I should say that I'm in a brand new 4e game and played one session, so I know a little bit about the game.

Should I wait for 4e? My main question is if 4e is going to be dangerous enough. 1st level 3.5e characters are fragile, so there's a lot of fear riding off into the unknown sandbox. 1st level 4e characters are pretty dang tough... although when you do nearly have a TPK, it's terrifying. I can't decide. On the one hand, the familiarity of 3.5e, plus the fear at low levels. On the other, I heard that preparing adventures is *way* easier in 4e, and for a sandbox game, that's awesome.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It is generally easier from what we have seen in 4e to do on-the-fly DMing since there is smaller, neater stat-blocks for monster, tons of different variants for monsters, easier to adjust the level of difficulty in encounters.

Also, while 4e PCs will survive more then a couple rounds in a balanced encounter at 1st level, given that monsters in 4e do more damage and attack in larger groups it can be just as scary for the players.

 

[Rechan]

I suspect that your players would still be afraid until they're at least level 3-4.

Why?

1) 3.5 mindset. They're not used to the new system, they're not likely aware of how tough they really are.

2) They're gamers. Very rarely have I seen players who are reckless with their character, assured that they can walk through fire. Caution and all that.

3) The Unknown. Sure, even if they KNOW they have potent abilities, they don't Know waht the monsters have.

Also, the low levels aren't a cake walk. The system is set so a single hit doesn't drop you. But I can guarantee that a second hit will drop the mage. You set up a lurker to pounce the wizard, or some skirmishers to come on from behind, and they'll sweat.

In addition, you have the ability to send tougher monsters after them. Look at this thread, where someone pitted 2 level 6 monsters against 4 level 1 pregen characters. Watch the players expressions when you throw a minotaur at them, for instance, while they're still young pups.


As a sidenote, if you're doing a sandbox, that means you'll have to take time to develop the box of sand. So you can start fleshing it out now. Sadly you don't have the books on hand, but you can still put those thoughts together, hm?

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Actually now that I think about it, another nice thing with 4e PCs having more health and ability to survive and sandbox games is it allows more freedom for PCs to come across quite-powerful monsters early on, while still allowing the chance to escape, and not becoming "the cave collapses on you and kills you".

 

[WyzardWhately]

Umm, sort of OT, but if you do go for a sandbox-style 4E game, would you be willing to take on another player? I'm really into that playstyle, and it's very rarely done. Thanks for considering it, either way.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Someone want to tell me what "Sandbox" refers to?

"Ah don't understahnd your nerd language."

On the subject of 4E low-level fear: On thursday I started a real 4E game (as opposed to the demos I've been doing).

Anyway, the Elf Rogue was rushed by 3 goblin minions, who beat on him a bit, and then a Goblin Picador wrapped his harpoon around the guys leg and dragged him in front of a Hobgoblin soldier who wolloped him with a mace.

I can tell you, THAT player sure wasn't feeling like his 1st level 4E character was indestructable.

In fact, a few bad rolls on the part of the party, and two crits in the same round by me, had the whole party fearing for their lives in a perfeclty balanced fight.

Trust me, 4E can be plenty scary enough.
Personally I find it scarier than 3E because I don't feel BAD about kicking the crap out of a single character, because there is enough ways for him to survive so that it doesn't feel like the DM's out to get him, it feels like the monsters are.

Fitz

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I've always found that the tougher PCs are, the more violently you can beat the crap out of them. Repeatedly.

 

[cr0m]

Fitz, it's easier for me to just link to the blog where I first heard the term than try to explain what a sandbox game is.

Wyzard, do you live in Vancouver, BC?

Keep the opinions coming. In the one session of 4e that we played, we had a very tough fight that could have gone either way. It was when we were low on powers and healing, and just about to camp. But in the earlier fights, I never really felt all that scared.

Also, Rechan, I think in a sandbox game people are more reckless with their first level guys, because there isn't the expectation that the DM might fudge to save them. Even moreso while sussing out a new system. I play my 4e Paladin like a suicidal maniac, leaping into the middle of a swarm of bad guys, marking all the big bads and generally trying to figure out how things work.

 

[Rechan]

Sandbox isn't just related to RPGs, but also to video games.

See: Grand Theft Auto. The basic premise is "I can go where I want, and initiate missions when I want." For a game like D&D, it'd mean "We take out a map, point at it, go to that place, and fun happens" instead of DM handing you plot hooks and following his adventure.

Problem comes from it all being site-based, it seems, and no real plots stringing it together.

I've always found that the tougher PCs are, the more violently you can beat the crap out of them. Repeatedly.

Aye.

 

[Surgoshan]

Someone want to tell me what "Sandbox" refers to?

"Ah don't understahnd your nerd language."

Quick answer: A game in which the player(s) is(are) free to explore. If you're familiar with video games, then Oblivion is the ultimate sand box; you can ignore the story completely and just go play around in the world all you want. The opposite would be the shooter games at arcades where the machine controls everything, all you do is shoot a pistol; the game is literally on rails, like an amusement park ride.

For a longer explanation, check out the wikipedia entry.

In terms of D&D, the extreme alternatives would be the game in which the DM has worked out a detailed plot and works hard to keep the players in his story (railroad plot) versus a world that the DM creates on the fly with no predetermined plot beyond character development.