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Celebrim

Legend
We need to be able to agree on what a vaguely reasonable person could find to be a railroad.

But that's entirely the point. I'd have no desire to argue for such a level of precision, except that we have a considerable number of people using such loose and unhelpful definitions that they blankly declare that a setting which contains so much as a building (with solid stone walls) is identical to and congruous with a railroad. This leaves me with little choice but to insist on more definitive definitions.

We need to be able to agree on whether "railroad" applies to the structure, or only to the thing that the player finds bad, or both.

Yes, exactly. Hense the discussion.

I, personally, am not going to stop referring to strongly linear structures where the PCs are actively directed back onto the track as being a "railroad" even if the players like it. I need to be able to refer to that structure and method separate from the player's reaction, and I'm not going to try to force created lingo down the throats of others to do it.

That summarizes my position as I intend it quite well.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
Ex., the "Tiny World". Just how do you know that World A is "Tiny"? How much larger does World B have to be to not be a railroad? Etc., etc.

I clearly misnamed the trope, because you are focusing on the size of the world as it's distinguishing feature. I named the trope from the through the small door world of Neil Gaimen's Coraline because it seemed to me that the effect that a RPG Tiny World has on a player when he discover's its nature is similar to that of Coraline when she discovers the real nature of the Other World.

The Tiny World is defined not so much by its size, but by it being deceptive in its size and impossible to leave. There is some concealed edge or wall to the universe which is presented. I dare not point out more examples from literature and cinema because the existance of the Tiny World is often a twist or the twist in a story, but fun as it may be for the viewer to learn of the twist, it's seldom as much fun for the character.

If a setting is a Tiny World, it's not subjective. Either the hidden edge exists or it doesn't. Either the setting traps those within or it doesn't. That the setting is tiny isn't the point. If the setting is tiny and known by its inhabitents at its true size (even if they believe it in ignorance to be the whole of the universe) and is escapable then its not a Tiny World. Now, it might be a cool scenario to escape from a Tiny World, but such a scenario is a railroad cool or uncool and especially so if there is only one way to escape.

It would be comforting to think that you can objectively look at games and say, "This is a railroad; that is not", but the distinction would rely perforce on your own valuations, and would be useless if someone within the game felt differently.

This is why I openned up a separate thread on the very subject. If anyone disagreed and thought that the situations I described were not railroads, well they could argue for them. And if anyone thought there were other situations not covered by my definitions, they could argue that as well. I recognize that there exists no authoritarian resource by which the meaning of the word 'railroad' can be pinned down. So, yes, anyone is free to suggest that the meaning that I have given is not authoritarian and may if they wish suggest a contrary definition. If you believe that the definition of railroad is wholly subjective, then feel free to try to prove that. However, for my part, I see far too much agreement in recognizing a railroad to believe its a matter wholly of opinion. The disagreement I'm seeing seems largely a product of extrapolating from shaky and unsuitable definitions, and the flaws in that extrapolation are too me quite readily demonstrated. If the claim were true that, "We cannot objectively identify a railroad...", then it would follow that a railroad could be anything and nothing and we could do no better than to stop bothering to talk about it because the discussion would be pointless. My definition however doesn't depend on the experience of being railroaded or thinking it good or bad, but on objective qualities of the scenario. We can then use this as a launching off point for discussing whether and when to use these techniques. But if there are not objective techniques that can be labelled 'railroading', then we may as well leave off all discussion of whether and when to railroad since there is no way to even describe what it is we are talking about much less when or how to employ it.
 

Ariosto

First Post
Celebrim, the essential thing if one wants to set up a full campaign is simply that one does not want to dictate the course of events.

Having in the first place no outcomes to enforce, one has no need to enforce; with no need to enforce, one has no need for the tools of enforcement.

Just go back to playing the game, and there you are.
 

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