Sanity Checking some Monster Damages

[Markn]

And I was just starting to turn blue....

 

[keterys]

Still mostly quiet, but a quick snapshot of level 20 if anyone cared:

I'm 'looking for' 80 damage as my magic number for 'presents enough of a threat to be worth fighting', pretty happy with anything in the 80-120 range, multiplied appropriately by role.

WITHOUT RESISTANCE
Monster                      Damage    Goal%
Fell Troll                   55.0      -65.7%
Nightwalker                  230.0     +43.7%
Soulspike Devourer           140.5     -12.2%
Elder Blue Dragon            568.2     +42.1%
Black Slaad                  175.2     +119.0%
Fire Archon Ash Disciple     130.6     +63.3%
Ice Archon Frostshaper       56.2      -29.8%
Ice Devil (Gelugon)          104.1     +30.1%
Rimefire Griffon             55.3      -30.9%
Rot Harbinger                90.3      +12.8%

WITH RESIST 10
Monster                      Damage    Goal%
Fell Troll                   55.0      -65.7%
Nightwalker                  69.0      -56.9%
Soulspike Devourer           110.5     -31.0%
Elder Blue Dragon            324.9     -18.8%
Black Slaad                  175.2     +119.0%
Fire Archon Ash Disciple     39.7      -50.3%
Ice Archon Frostshaper       21.7      -72.8%
Ice Devil (Gelugon)          21.7      -72.9%
Rimefire Griffon             33.3      -58.3%
Rot Harbinger                49.0      -38.8%

So, resistance has a... bleak... effect on the threat of creatures at this level. The Ice Archon and Devil for example are reduced to the point where you'd face an entire group of them and barely notice the damage at all. There are things that could help here - like all of those 'ice spear, ice javelin' etc attacks could deal weapon damage and not _just_ cold damage, but all the same you have to expect people to have a fair smattering of resistances.

Without resistance, damage is actually not that bad. Still some outliers... like the Fell Troll is just one big bag of hp that's boooring, and the Rimefire Griffon appears to be a failure to execute in concept. The slaad could probably be toned down a bit

P.S. Yes, I'm ignoring the 'And the orbizard stuns the solo for the entire fight' concept. That can be dealt with party-side

 

[Markn]

Still mostly quiet, but a quick snapshot of level 20 if anyone cared:

I'm 'looking for' 80 damage as my magic number for 'presents enough of a threat to be worth fighting', pretty happy with anything in the 80-120 range, multiplied appropriately by role.

WITHOUT RESISTANCE
Monster                      Damage    Goal%
Fell Troll                   55.0      -65.7%
Nightwalker                  230.0     +43.7%
Soulspike Devourer           140.5     -12.2%
Elder Blue Dragon            568.2     +42.1%
Black Slaad                  175.2     +119.0%
Fire Archon Ash Disciple     130.6     +63.3%
Ice Archon Frostshaper       56.2      -29.8%
Ice Devil (Gelugon)          104.1     +30.1%
Rimefire Griffon             55.3      -30.9%
Rot Harbinger                90.3      +12.8%

WITH RESIST 10
Monster                      Damage    Goal%
Fell Troll                   55.0      -65.7%
Nightwalker                  69.0      -56.9%
Soulspike Devourer           110.5     -31.0%
Elder Blue Dragon            324.9     -18.8%
Black Slaad                  175.2     +119.0%
Fire Archon Ash Disciple     39.7      -50.3%
Ice Archon Frostshaper       21.7      -72.8%
Ice Devil (Gelugon)          21.7      -72.9%
Rimefire Griffon             33.3      -58.3%
Rot Harbinger                49.0      -38.8%

So, resistance has a... bleak... effect on the threat of creatures at this level. The Ice Archon and Devil for example are reduced to the point where you'd face an entire group of them and barely notice the damage at all. There are things that could help here - like all of those 'ice spear, ice javelin' etc attacks could deal weapon damage and not _just_ cold damage, but all the same you have to expect people to have a fair smattering of resistances.

Without resistance, damage is actually not that bad. Still some outliers... like the Fell Troll is just one big bag of hp that's boooring, and the Rimefire Griffon appears to be a failure to execute in concept. The slaad could probably be toned down a bit

Interesting results. Thanks for sharing. I've noticed that WotC over compensates for some abilities. While I can't say I noticed the effects that resistance has, I have noticed damage decreasing a lot for attacks that deal things like stunned and weakened and so forth.

By the way, any interest in sharing your spreadsheet? I'd be interested in seeing it!

 

[keterys]

Heh, it's still got a fair bit of work before it's ready for the public. A lot of stuff I still do in my head* as I go and I want to get the kinks out, I've just been trying to get a large number of monsters in so I can make sure I've covered the most common types of abilities.

* Like I need to look up what the mathematical expression is for dice with negative modifiers that drop some of their results below 0: 2d10-3 doesn't average (11-3=8) because when you roll two 1s you don't subtract 1. Only a difference of .01, but 2d6-7 _really_ doesn't equal 0 too

 

[Markn]

Fair enough. but just so you know, even when you think its public ready, people will still tear it to shreds. For me, I respect your process and decision making skills (even if I don't always agree with them) that I'm interested in seeing the spreadsheet and using it as a discussion point.

But whenever you are ready to share, I'll look forward to it.

 

[Eric Finley]

Keterys: Try MIN(NdX,0) or its equivalent. Should be some version of that in whatever you're using.

Interesting stuff, and goes well with CapnZapp's discussion of resistances elsewhere here. I, too, look forward to your results.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I really like the work you have done. I am running a campaign with max 2 hour preparation time and I hate making encounters that are boring.

Some monsters, like Trolls are really boring as they are written. No oomph, just a bag of hp you NEED to focus fire upon. I had an encounter with trolls in and it got boring fast because of the lack of threat. Encounters like that are funny max once a session.

A tool to pick scary* monsters quickly would be a great, so I hope you finish and publish your findings.

*Knowing what monsters to avoid/houserule is nearly as important, especially if running a premade module.

 

[Stalker0]

A great thread idea.

I agree that some monsters do seem to overcompensate for other abilities. I think as a general guideline I would like to see monsters do more damage and less conditions. The monsters that do conditions every hit for example, could get more damage, and then a recharge condition attack instead.


I do think looking at the spike damage is important for this discussion. Average damage is a good general indicator of power, but from a threat standpoint spike damage is very important.

Parties can handle average damage with tactics and healing. Its the OMG how much damage!! attacks that can take them off their game and get them into situations they never expected.

Its similar to the monsters that turn off a players ability to heal for a round. Done at the right time, that can be far more crippling than an attack that did twice as much damage.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, I have some spike damage indicators that just didn't trip for any of the level 20 creatures.

Looking back at level 8 they tripped for several critters - satyr rake and griffon can burst a lot of damage (double attack with sneak attack, double attack charge) and a mad wraith can touch someone for significant damage, cause them to move (triggering OAs technically), and then attack someone else.

I don't have any triggers for _lack_ of spike damage, which is an interesting concept... I guess I could do it as a minimum damage for a level+role and just ignore the monsters that do lots of little hits (some swarms) when they trigger it.

 

[eamon]

Wraith: As a player and a DM-of-players, I know that we'd all be happier to face specters than wraiths. Specters have a good (rechargeable) area attack, but at least you can kill them. Wraiths have the capability of dishing out high damage (+10 vs Reflex, 2d6+4 damage, vs flanked or unaware targets) and they have the triple whammy of Insubstantial-Weaken-Regeneration.

I realize this thread is focused on damage, but I really feel the need to support the notion that wraiths are horribly nasty.

I'm playing in a party with six fourth level characters, and yesterday we faced six wraiths and two mad wraiths, which is a level+2 to level+3 encounter - our party is fairly competent and this level of encounter is typically a challenging but by no means overwhelming combat.

Our DM initially forgot the wraith's +1d6 combat advantage bonus, and forgot their regeneration. The combat started with our Avenger using his channel divinity anti-undead power, and he critted a Mad Wraith for something like 40 radiant damage - which didn't even bloody it (due to the insubstantial property).

To cut a long story short, even without regen and the damage bonus, and with a truly lucky start to the combat, this combat had us hopelessly outclassed - it wasn't even remotely close. Virtually every character was always weakened, meaning that effectively, the wraiths had around 5 times more hit points (weakened: factor 2, insubstatial: factor 2, for a total factor 4, with a significant loss due to rounding down. A 10 damage attack would deal 2 damage to the wraith).

Two mad wraiths means that most characters are constantly dazed and take 5 necrotic damage at the start of the turn. This is really nasty. Fortunately, we have quite a few radiant powers (radiant damage suppresses a mad wraith's aura), but even then two dazed characters need to hit both mad wraiths with such powers to suppress both auras - and of course, sometimes you miss, and sometimes you can only use a ranged power or a charge (no shift-attack due to dazed) - which provokes OA's with CA from all nearby normal wraiths, and you need to do this every round just to prevent ongoing 5 necrotic and daze for the entire party. Nasty.

For kicks, mad wraiths have a recharging domination-like attack; and characters hit by it move their speed to attack the nearest ally. Because we weren't all bunched up (due to the aura's), such attacks often meant provoking 3 (sometimes more) OAs, so one hit by that recharge power commonly meant 5 attacks - the power itself, the OA's, and the forced attack on each other.

To better be able to cover each others backs and avoid the worst of these friendly fire incidents, we finally regrouped in a corridor, leaving a fallen comrade behind, and tried to place our two most resilient characters to the front: one guy with resist 5 necrotic, and another with reflex 21 (which is what normal wraiths target). Then, we discovered the next two killer features wraiths have (fortunately, by now the DM realized he'd underestimated wraiths, and hardly used these abilities). You can't block wraiths; they're phasing, so they just fly through you or the walls to surround you and attack the weakest charactes. This movement might even provoke OA's, were it not that (1) they can often use the walls, (2) PC's are often dazed, and (3) in the odd case that they want to move and might provoke, they can use their encounter power to shift 6 squares. Needless to say, gaining any kind of tactical advantage against such opponents is very difficult. Finally, as a cherry on top... that fallen comrade? Well, that dude will rise as (yep) yet another wraith.

With a lot of DM help, "we" pulled through. The DM played the wraiths as essentially mindless, not taking even obviously beneficial tactical moves. Our 20 charisma paladin, with the power to mass mark, got the chance to mark all wraiths, and almost all of them continued hitting the nearest target, taking a bunch of radiant damage. The wraiths bunched up in the hallway before us, right in front of our wizard, who put various area effects to good use. Hints as to which wraith was weakened most were liberally given to help focused fire. Wraiths, on the other hand, didn't focus their fire.

To recap:
- Effectively factor 4 more hitpoints than printed due to insubstatial and an at-will save-ends weakening power.
- Obscenely high regeneration - regen 5, which effectively works out as something like regen 20 due to the weaken+insubstantial combo.
- a nasty auras which dazes and damages (mad wraiths)
- a will-targetting attack which potentially causes heaps of OA's and friendly fire (and an at-will penalizing the Will defense) (mad wraiths)
- phasing and an encounter shift power which (especially due to the common daze) means that it is very hard to deploy effective tactics and formations; a hurt wraith can easily maneuver to a safe spot and simply regenerate.
- any fallen friend rises as a new (mad) wraith
- Extra damage with CA (which mad wraiths amply provide via their dazing aura)


These things are way, way, way overpowered for their level.

We've also had a needlefang swarm encounter @ level 1, but this one (so far) took the cake. Needlefangs are really nasty - but killable. (Mad) Wraiths are only somewhat nasty, but dazing, phasing, and very hard to kill.