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Sauron as a player character in DND 3.5
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8815375" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Not in the way you interpret them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can control volcano's generally or even that volcano in great detail. Sauron seems to have enchanted a portion of the volcano to obey his will in a limited manner so that he can use it as a forge. Moreover, that's probably something that has more to do with the really different way magic works in Middle Earth compared to D&D. Sauron essentially has a limited domain power, and I mean that more in the sense of a lair power in 5e. It's probably best to treat Orodruin as a sort of magic item he's created.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, there is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can cause earthquakes generally, as opposed to earthquakes that are a natural side effect of allowing Mount Doom to erupt.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, there is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can control the weather generally, as opposed to fumes that are the natural side effect of allowing Mount Doom to erupt. A D&D spell caster could repeatedly cast control weather when things weren't going to plan, but Sauron can't and when the natural forces he unleashes don't go his way he's pretty much helpless to do anything about it. Moreover, there is internal textual evidence against this claim through Tom Bombadil.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, he can do this. Dominating the will of others is very much Sauron's thing. But also not outside the abilities I outlined of an undead sorcerer. But mostly Sauron has high levels of skill in intimidate, diplomacy, bluff ect. that are augmented the way Saruman's are by Sauron's natural authority as a Maiar. This is the part you don't get. There isn't much in the way of D&D magic in Middle Earth. What there actually is is a combination of skill and authority. Sauron can dominate things because he's twisted his natural gift of altering and shaping to forcing others. But mostly he doesn't do that as a spell in the D&D sense of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Has absolutely nothing to do with casting the spell Sympathy. It's vastly more subtle thing going on here, both much weaker than the spell Sympathy (in that it can take years to come into full effect) and in some sense more powerful (in that it's area of effect is basically a whole planet). This is more or less a domain or lair power that would need a special write up because D&D doesn't normally deal with magic that subtle or pervasive, and probably has more to do with a rule set like Birthright.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely nothing like the spell Antimagic Field. Again, you are kludging D&D spells into situations that they don't really fit into. Sauron might reasonably said to have Spell Resistance, but he doesn't have an Antimagic Field. What he has is Authority dispensationally granted him by Eru as a Maiar. Ownership of something is a really big deal in Middle Earth. If you have a legitimate claim to something and have legitimate authority, then it obeys you. So what you are dealing with is something more like a lair power. If Sauron goes to Rivendell or Lothlorien, the reverse thing happens to him - not because Elrond or Galadriel have Antimagic Field as a power, but because Sauron would be then in the place they legitimately own and so his ability to command things would be weakened. Heck, to some extent this would even happen to Sauron if he enters uninvited into Bag End, and a Baggins challenged him. This is for example why Farmer Maggot, who can't cast Antimagic Field and who isn't a 9th level cleric, can nevertheless daunt and force Nazgul to leave his property. This isn't something modeled in D&D, but effectively it's like if you are on someone else's property all your spells get downgraded X caster levels depending on how much authority that property owner has.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Again, that's Sauron's thing. But that's not outside the realm of power for what I suggested of an 11th level undead sorcerer. However, mostly again this is not Sauron using magic that gives him great ability to control and sway other people's minds. This is mostly high levels of intimidate, diplomacy, and bluff. Sauron is mostly just using his oratory and conversational skills and the respect people are going to feel for him when they sense his Eru granted authority (however twisted to evil). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Nazgul were created by what was effectively an artifact magic item, one that was created under such unique circumstances that Suaron can no longer make more. (It's a trope of the setting that skilled craftsmen can make artifacts once, but can't repeat the magic. See Feanor and the Silmarils, for example). And the fact that they turned into undead was a side effect of that item, not the product of a Create Undead spell. As for the Barrow Wights, they weren't created by Sauron in the first place, and were probably created by the same sort of processes that create Wights normally.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Racial ability of all Ainur, lost to him by the third age. See the text of Morgoth's Ring for why.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not so much self-resurrect as it is a racial ability (shared with elves) that they can't be killed because their spirits are bound to the earth. He's more like a D&D Liche except Arda itself is his phylactery. But then, so are Tolkien elves! The only real difference is as a Maiar he can make himself a body, although he's increasingly losing that ability by the 3rd age as he's just taken too much damage and grown too evil.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Don't even really know what you mean by that, but while projecting fear is probably something he can do, it's just as much high levels of the skill intimidate as it is a spell. Plus, as a ghost or a specter he's going to have that sort of aura of terror thing going, both in RAW and more specifically if we were to use some sort of Ravenloft style Fear/Horror/Madness checks (which would probably be appropriate).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Natural science. Sauron understands what disease is and has the technical knowledge to control and guide it if he finds it in the environment.</p></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8815375, member: 4937"] Not in the way you interpret them. There is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can control volcano's generally or even that volcano in great detail. Sauron seems to have enchanted a portion of the volcano to obey his will in a limited manner so that he can use it as a forge. Moreover, that's probably something that has more to do with the really different way magic works in Middle Earth compared to D&D. Sauron essentially has a limited domain power, and I mean that more in the sense of a lair power in 5e. It's probably best to treat Orodruin as a sort of magic item he's created. Again, there is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can cause earthquakes generally, as opposed to earthquakes that are a natural side effect of allowing Mount Doom to erupt. Again, there is no sign whatsoever that Sauron can control the weather generally, as opposed to fumes that are the natural side effect of allowing Mount Doom to erupt. A D&D spell caster could repeatedly cast control weather when things weren't going to plan, but Sauron can't and when the natural forces he unleashes don't go his way he's pretty much helpless to do anything about it. Moreover, there is internal textual evidence against this claim through Tom Bombadil. Yes, he can do this. Dominating the will of others is very much Sauron's thing. But also not outside the abilities I outlined of an undead sorcerer. But mostly Sauron has high levels of skill in intimidate, diplomacy, bluff ect. that are augmented the way Saruman's are by Sauron's natural authority as a Maiar. This is the part you don't get. There isn't much in the way of D&D magic in Middle Earth. What there actually is is a combination of skill and authority. Sauron can dominate things because he's twisted his natural gift of altering and shaping to forcing others. But mostly he doesn't do that as a spell in the D&D sense of it. Has absolutely nothing to do with casting the spell Sympathy. It's vastly more subtle thing going on here, both much weaker than the spell Sympathy (in that it can take years to come into full effect) and in some sense more powerful (in that it's area of effect is basically a whole planet). This is more or less a domain or lair power that would need a special write up because D&D doesn't normally deal with magic that subtle or pervasive, and probably has more to do with a rule set like Birthright. Absolutely nothing like the spell Antimagic Field. Again, you are kludging D&D spells into situations that they don't really fit into. Sauron might reasonably said to have Spell Resistance, but he doesn't have an Antimagic Field. What he has is Authority dispensationally granted him by Eru as a Maiar. Ownership of something is a really big deal in Middle Earth. If you have a legitimate claim to something and have legitimate authority, then it obeys you. So what you are dealing with is something more like a lair power. If Sauron goes to Rivendell or Lothlorien, the reverse thing happens to him - not because Elrond or Galadriel have Antimagic Field as a power, but because Sauron would be then in the place they legitimately own and so his ability to command things would be weakened. Heck, to some extent this would even happen to Sauron if he enters uninvited into Bag End, and a Baggins challenged him. This is for example why Farmer Maggot, who can't cast Antimagic Field and who isn't a 9th level cleric, can nevertheless daunt and force Nazgul to leave his property. This isn't something modeled in D&D, but effectively it's like if you are on someone else's property all your spells get downgraded X caster levels depending on how much authority that property owner has. Sure. Again, that's Sauron's thing. But that's not outside the realm of power for what I suggested of an 11th level undead sorcerer. However, mostly again this is not Sauron using magic that gives him great ability to control and sway other people's minds. This is mostly high levels of intimidate, diplomacy, and bluff. Sauron is mostly just using his oratory and conversational skills and the respect people are going to feel for him when they sense his Eru granted authority (however twisted to evil). The Nazgul were created by what was effectively an artifact magic item, one that was created under such unique circumstances that Suaron can no longer make more. (It's a trope of the setting that skilled craftsmen can make artifacts once, but can't repeat the magic. See Feanor and the Silmarils, for example). And the fact that they turned into undead was a side effect of that item, not the product of a Create Undead spell. As for the Barrow Wights, they weren't created by Sauron in the first place, and were probably created by the same sort of processes that create Wights normally. Racial ability of all Ainur, lost to him by the third age. See the text of Morgoth's Ring for why. It's not so much self-resurrect as it is a racial ability (shared with elves) that they can't be killed because their spirits are bound to the earth. He's more like a D&D Liche except Arda itself is his phylactery. But then, so are Tolkien elves! The only real difference is as a Maiar he can make himself a body, although he's increasingly losing that ability by the 3rd age as he's just taken too much damage and grown too evil. Don't even really know what you mean by that, but while projecting fear is probably something he can do, it's just as much high levels of the skill intimidate as it is a spell. Plus, as a ghost or a specter he's going to have that sort of aura of terror thing going, both in RAW and more specifically if we were to use some sort of Ravenloft style Fear/Horror/Madness checks (which would probably be appropriate). Natural science. Sauron understands what disease is and has the technical knowledge to control and guide it if he finds it in the environment.[/quote] [/QUOTE]
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