[Savage Species] Undead with Class levels

[reiella]

I really feel stupid for asking this, but I just noticed it this afternoon and it's been bugging me for a while .

Do Undead (non-templated, like say, the Shadow), as presented in Savage Species, gain their classes normal hitdie if they start taking class levels, or do they gain the standard undead d12.

From what I can tell, by the rules (letter at the least), they only gain their classes hitdie.

For some nagging reason that just doesn't seem right to me .

 

[Pax]

Undead always gain d12 Hitdice. Even for classes. Look to the Lich as an example.

This is intended to offset the lack of a Constitutionbonus.

 

[Garnfellow]

Pax wrote:

Undead always gain d12 Hitdice. Even for classes. Look to the Lich as an example.

But the question was specifically about adding class levels to non-templated undead. I don’t believe that Savage Species directly addresses this question, but even when the book addresses adding class levels to undead templates, SS is irreconcilably contradictory.

In Savage Species, the most definitive statement occurs on page 17, in the sidebar "Templates and Classes": "Once a creature becomes undead, all its Hit Dice become d12s. Any dice gained afterward from class levels are also d12s, regardless of class." One might infer that this statement holds for all undead, templated or not.

And Table 10-1: Hit Dice and Templates shows that all of the undead templates complete change a monster’s previously acquired HD and continue to change future HD gained with class levels. Again, this suggests using all d12s.

But once you start getting into the descriptions of the undead templates in Chapter 10, you start finding comments like this under "Spectral Characters," page 131, "Spectral characters with class levels generally take levels of barbarian, fighter, or ranger. These classes offer good Hit Dice . . ." A similar statement is made about wraith characters – suggesting that undead with class levels may not use all d12s.

So if Savage Species doesn't clearly answer the original question, we can turn to the next published authority, the 3.5 Monster Manual. The 3.5 MM introduces much better language in the "Size and Type" line of the template description that clearly indicates all 3.5 undead templates change "all current and future Hit Dice to d12s."

So where does that leave us with non-templated monsters? The 3.5 MM does not explicitly state that all undead HD, templated or not, should use d12s. Further, the mummy lord entry clearly separates out mummy HD (d12s) from cleric HD (d8s). So, I’m inclined to think that unless the monster description specifically says otherwise, class levels added to a non-templated undead should use regular class HD.

 

[reiella]

Ok . The Mummy Lord example pretty much answers it for then.

At least until SS clarifications and/or 3.5MM clarifications come out, hehe.

 

[DjeraktheBloodletter]

The problem with the D12 hit dice is now problematical with the advent of the Mind over Matter Feat introduced with the Warcraft D20 system to help the Forsaken players feel the joy of massive HP.

Mind Over Matter
[General]
Your force of will toughens your body.
Prerequisite: You must be an undead creature.
Benefit: Add your Charisma bonus to each of your
current Hit Dice and to all future Hit Dice. In effect,
you use your Charisma instead of your (non-existent)
Stamina to determine bonus hit points.

Yes, Evil, isn't it.

 

[TanisFrey]

If you look into the D&D FAQ, it says that non-templated undead use standard hit dice when they gain a class level, while those with templates follow this rule also unless they state otherwise. Then Libris Mortis comes out later and says that all undead use d12 hit dice.

So, WOTC flip-flopped on the issue and ended up with all undead use d12.

Had I know about the Warcraft d20 feat I would have tried to get my DM to let me use it. But it was a Forgotten Realms game, he would have said no. After the lich being out for 17 in game days, I decided to bring in a new character.