Save My Game - Goes off like a bomb!

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Quilted is a scam. Never accept less than two-ply, though.

 

[molonel]

Quilted is a scam. Never accept less than two-ply, though.

I'll take tabletop RPGs over non-quilted toilet paper any day of the week!

 

[takyris]

Who says it has to be about debating the absolute limitations of a certain media? If linear games like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance inform someone's experience of PnP RPGs why shouldn't they be a legitimate part of the discussion?

We weren't talking about the paper-doll inventory system or the concept of class-based versus point-based levelling. If we were, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance would be a completely valid fit, since it uses those RPG elements. We were talking about options for nonlinear storytelling and open exploration as contrasted in CRPGs and tabletop games, and the games you're using to support your case are games that are not, and were not billed as, strong in that area.

If you want to compare the two media, compare two that are aiming for the same thing. As it stands, you're using a videogame not trying to do "X" as your evidence that tabletop games will always be better at "X". At least consider using a game that does "X".

Because I've seen and run games whose purpose was "kill things randomly selected from the Monster Manual as they spawn in the room, and you can't leave the room". If you want to play "some video games do plot-railroading badly", I can play "some tabletop games do plot-railroading badly". I don't think that's terribly productive for the discussion, though.

Also, two-ply? Please. Why don't you just wipe with twenty dollar bills, since you're so eager to flush your money down the toilet? Quilted is where it's at. You can feel the difference.

 

[wally]

To try and still continue the discussion…

While there are a lot of video games out there now that allow so much more options they still do not compare to tabletop games that I have participated in.

I played Oblivion for quite a while and really enjoyed it, but when options aren’t available, like climbing (unless I really missed it) or picking up things like ladders (which I could never find), I find the game limiting.

If I am playing in a tabletop game that is limiting to that end…The GM has a specific set of encounters that we cannot miss, and specific puzzles that we have to solve or we can’t continue, then I feel ‘like I am playing a video game’. Yes, that has already been remarked upon in here, but I can give you good examples of it.

If I am playing in a tabletop game that is not limiting, and I mean within reason (I can explain that if you want), then I feel more free to do what I want, and I haven’t seen a video game that allows that.

What this leads back to is the original discussion…If you are playing in a game where the GM requires a specific action on the part of the players before they can continue, then yes, in my opinion, that is a wrong thing. They should always have a choice, even if that choice is failing and leaving this puzzle behind. In the long run it could mean that they are unable to obtain the great something or other that helps them defeat the great evil/good, but at least that choice is there. If a GM limits choice like that, then the game can stop dead in its tracks and without a game, I don’t think anyone can have fun. If the GM leaves clues all over to help with the puzzle, and the players/characters don’t notice or realize, then it isn’t that they are stupid, just that maybe the GM should have hinted that there are going to be clues that should be paid attention to, or he should realize that the players aren’t expecting or want to play that kind of game. No reason to point fault for that, just understand and move on.

-wally

 

[Ourph]

We weren't talking about the paper-doll inventory system or the concept of class-based versus point-based levelling. If we were, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance would be a completely valid fit, since it uses those RPG elements. We were talking about options for nonlinear storytelling and open exploration as contrasted in CRPGs and tabletop games, and the games you're using to support your case are games that are not, and were not billed as, strong in that area.

As the first person to mention video games in the thread I can tell you I was emphatically NOT talking about "options for nonlinear storytelling and open exploration as contrasted in CRPGs and tabletop games". I can also say truthfully that BG: DA does in fact, support my case. I think you are just confusing my case with someone elses.

If you want to compare the two media, compare two that are aiming for the same thing. As it stands, you're using a videogame not trying to do "X" as your evidence that tabletop games will always be better at "X". At least consider using a game that does "X".

But my purpose isn't and never was to compare video games and tabletop RPGs in a pro vs. con, strength vs. weakness manner. You're telling me I can't use an example because it doesn't prove X, but I'm not trying to prove X. I wasn't really trying to "prove" anything.

Because I've seen and run games whose purpose was "kill things randomly selected from the Monster Manual as they spawn in the room, and you can't leave the room". If you want to play "some video games do plot-railroading badly", I can play "some tabletop games do plot-railroading badly". I don't think that's terribly productive for the discussion, though.

I don't either. In fact, I think the whole CRPGs vs. tabletop comparison is entirely irrelevant. What I do think is relevant is how one form of gaming can inform the way a player or DM approaches other forms of gaming. I see vast differences in the expectations people bring to the table depending on what other game/entertainment activities they participated in prior to or in conjunction with discovering the tabletop roleplaying hobby (like tabletop wargaming, choose-your-own-adventure books, video games, strategic boardgames, etc.). I don't think it's useful to that discussion to pretend that, when talking about video games, someone's outlook on RPGs can only be influenced by the latest, most versatile examples of CRPGs when it's obvious that millions of people also play and enjoy other types of video games (including simple, linear games like BG: DA).

 

[Remathilis]

Read Sig

 

[Jhaelen]

Read Sig

So true!

 

[Thurbane]

Buzzwords are the kewl.

 

[Storm Raven]

I dunno, man, that's pretty insulting to some of the DMs who might just have sticking points and bottlenecks for the purpose of their campaign.

Immutable sticking points and bottlenecks are, in my opinion, marks of bad campaign design. DMs who include such things often have to engage in very contrived efforts to keep their PCs on the rails they set up, and the PCs almost always resent it.

 

[billd91]

Knights of the Old Republic had more roleplaying, and more meaningful choices than any tabletop game I've ever played in, over my 29 years of rping.

Maybe its sad, or maybe KOTOR simply was really that good.

Morrowind, and Oblivion, had more things to DO than any campaign world allowed options to do.

No CRPG ever said to me, "Sorry, I wasnt prepared for that, we'll have to stop here and start up again next week, I'll have to prepare a new adventure." Last dungeon I was in with a DM, one of the available options was not, "Leave the dungeon now, and go explore other stuff." Finishing the dungeon was plot central, so I wasnt allowed to leave. In a CRPG, I can leave dungeons any time I want.

KOTOR may be a pretty good crpg, but it's still no comparison to tabletop playing. You may never have to put up with a live GM saying that he's not prepped for something, but that's just because all of the things you can do have been planned for and the only way that's possible is to drastically limit the things you can do (compared to tabletop playing).
The issue of not being able to leave a dungeon because of the plot is a totally different one - that of excessive railroading.