Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[ProfessorCirno]

While there may or may not be ballot stuffing, there is certainly a lot of anonymous voters all flocking to the same decision.

As for save or dies, kill them. Get rid of them. The 4e mechanic is drastically better and introduces not just more fun but more dread, and I've adopted it to my non-4e games. D&D has always grappled with horror and how to implement it, and here's a big major awesome tip to DMs (Seriously you'll thank me for this, it's the best advice for horror you'll see about the game) - horror is not "Hah hah you failed your save, you died." That's not scary. It's annoying. It's irritating. It's stupid. It's frustrating. It's not scary.

Scary is "You're body is slowly solidifying into stone; at this rate, you won't be going much longer." And then in the next round, "You feel your arms and legs creak and slow, and cracks begin to fade away on your now grey skin as it spreads even farther." And then in the next round, "You kill the medusa, and the march of petrification across your body begins to reverse. You've survived."

That's awesome, dramatic, and scary as hell. It's the difference between a slow building tense scariness, and some guy in a closet jumping out and yelling "Boogity boogity boo!" In the first example, when are you going to be scared? There's no moment of fear. Just "Welp, you're gone." In the second example, there's lots of time to be afraid. A slow death is drastically scarier then a sudden one.

Right now, D&D is still wrestling with wether it's high flying adventure! or Grim and gritty sword and sorcery. People who generally like saving throws prefer the second option, where life is cheap, death is common, and there are no true heroes.

But that's the rub, isn't it? Don't whinge and claim that big saving throws make for big heroes - it doesn't. That style of gameplay has nothing to do with heroism. There's nothing heroic about slowly prodding forward in a dungeon, checking every cobblestone for traps, then the cealing, then the walls, and then the treasure, because they're all actually monsters and welp there goes another party. There's nothing heroic about TPKs to poisonous gas attacks. When a fighter grabs the nearby scythe to fend off some maurading orcs, that is heroic. When the orcs just kill him and then destroy the farm, that's not heroic, and here's the interesting point - the first can happen without the second ever even being an option.

When Perseus fought medusa, there weren't any dice being rolled. The storyteller made up a story all on his own and then nodded and said "And that's what happened, the end." Don't pretend it's some awesome example of gameplay. It's not.

Counterpoint, when Perseus fought medusa, the DMPC gave him a magical item that rendered the medusa's attack useless. Those aren't swingy odds. That's the DM just sighing and nodding.

Counterpoint, when Perseus fought medusa, the only reason he was able to be heroic is because he got rid of the save or die effect entirely. Yes, the only way to be a hero - by your own sig example! - is to get rid of the save or dies. Thanks for agreeing!

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'm not really down with the idea of small fry monsters, like 1HD spiders and the like, having save-or-dies. It means such beasts can fairly easily kill a high level character, which seems wrong to me. For powerful monsters like medusa or Shelob then it's more acceptable.

Actually I'm hard pressed to think of a D&D monster that has enough status to deserve a SoD other than a medusa. Bodaks are far too naff.

Another way to go would be to distinguish between medusa the race and The Medusa a la Greek myth and Birthright. Only the one 'true medusa' has a SoD, all the lesser medusae just have something like 4e. They're wusses!

 

[Doug McCrae]

Lots of great points in this post, Prof.

That's awesome, dramatic, and scary as hell. It's the difference between a slow building tense scariness, and some guy in a closet jumping out and yelling "Boogity boogity boo!" In the first example, when are you going to be scared? There's no moment of fear. Just "Welp, you're gone." In the second example, there's lots of time to be afraid. A slow death is drastically scarier then a sudden one.

Good insight into the nature of horror. It's in the tense build up, not the release.

You can get that tension with a SoD monster but it's in the rumours and clues the PCs learn prior to engaging. The statues outside and so forth. However one does not need SoD for this, one just needs a powerful monster that's been around long enough to get a bad rep. Or one that establishes its bad rep over the course of the game. It's no coincidence that the opening scene in a horror movie is often of some random schmoe getting kilt by the monster.

Right now, D&D is still wrestling with wether it's high flying adventure! or Grim and gritty sword and sorcery.

Agreed, but I think it's something D&D has always wrestled with, due to always having been a mix of both. Different onlookers emphasise different parts, according to taste.

 

[Abraxas]

While there may or may not be ballot stuffing, there is certainly a lot of anonymous voters all flocking to the same decision.

So what? If you look at any of the other public polls there are a lot of anonymous voters in all of them. Just look at the "do polls prove anything" poll - it looks like over half of the voters are anonymous.

 

[malraux]

So what? If you look at any of the other public polls there are a lot of anonymous voters in all of them. Just look at the "do polls prove anything" poll - it looks like over half of the voters are anonymous.

Its a lot easier to freep a poll anonymously than it is to freep a poll with legit users. If all the anonymous users are going for a particular choice, its certainly a reason to suspect ballot stuffing.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Just look at the "do polls prove anything" poll - it looks like over half of the voters are anonymous.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Counterpoint, when Perseus fought medusa, the only reason he was able to be heroic is because he got rid of the save or die effect entirely. Yes, the only way to be a hero - by your own sig example! - is to get rid of the save or dies. Thanks for agreeing!

In fact, once you see the medusa gaze attack like a defensive, instead of offensive ability, the game suddenly changes.

Find a strategy to not face the gaze, that's the challenge. the strategy will anyway give an edge to the medusa (that's the defensive ability).

This is why I like SoD. Is just another way to make players imaginative. Of course, just jump with a medusa into the inn to stone every person there.. is different. I don't like SoD because I like to deliver nasty surprises to players. Those are good too, but only if wll made and leaving them choices.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

In fact, once you see the medusa gaze attack like a defensive, instead of offensive ability, the game suddenly changes.

Find a strategy to not face the gaze, that's the challenge. the strategy will anyway give an edge to the medusa (that's the defensive ability).

This is why I like SoD. Is just another way to make players imaginative. Of course, just jump with a medusa into the inn to stone every person there.. is different. I don't like SoD because I like to deliver nasty surprises to players. Those are good too, but only if wll made and leaving them choices.

This leads to a rather complicated problem that came up in 3.x, at the least.

If you aren't prepared for the ability, it's SoD, and you most likely die. TPK, nobody has fun.

If you are prepared for the ability, it may as well not exist. There's no tension. That one ability is the enemy's main draw. Absurdedly easy victory, again, not very fun.

It's a really difficult balancing act, to say the least.

 

[athos]

Ya know, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If the players use save or die spells on my poor little monsters, it is only fair that the monsters respond in kind when they can.

Now the no save and die is even meaner. If they choose to holy word my minions, then a good blasphemy every now and then is only fair, don't you think?

 

[Reynard]

This leads to a rather complicated problem that came up in 3.x, at the least.

If you aren't prepared for the ability, it's SoD, and you most likely die. TPK, nobody has fun.

If you are prepared for the ability, it may as well not exist. There's no tension. That one ability is the enemy's main draw. Absurdedly easy victory, again, not very fun.

It's a really difficult balancing act, to say the least.

Why dopes it have to be extremes? That's where this discussion always goes off the rails, with both "sides" turtling up at the edges of their arguments and refusing any middle ground. It's silly and counterproductive.

"Not being prepared" doesn't mean insta-TPK. Don't forget the S in SoD, not to mention everything from initiative to encounter distance to any number of variables. In other words, suggesting that any encounter which includes SoD for which the PCs haven't spent days preparing is a death sentence is ludicrous.

"Being prepared" doesn't mean cake walk, either. There are still a lot of variables -- the same ones in the above example -- that can turn the tide or eliminate or weaken those preparations. And even if the preparations -- Death Ward, say -- negate a SoD or similar ability, it doesn't make the ability irrelevent because the PCs still had to use resources to avoid the ability, so it did its "job". In other words, suggesting that any encounter which includes SoD for which the PCs have prepared is meaningless is ludicrous.