Saves vs. DC

[Darklone]

Even if there is a save to DC disparity at higher levels (I don't really agree with it... as long as players don't build their own equipment ), I do think it's ok. A wizard will still be able to take a fighter type out with his big bang spells before the fighter closes in.

 

[Victim]

Hello all,

Does anyone think it is way to easy to raise your saving throw but way to hard to raise the DC to a spell???

It is possible to get a +5 cloak of resistance and a +5 luck bonus and a +5 insight bonus and a +5 sacred or profane bonus. Thats +20 + base save + abilty scores

BUT a wiz lets say sun elf with a 18 intel +2 intel for being sun elf raising it to 20 and all 5 abilty points bring it to 25 and a head band of intelect +6 bring your total intel to 31 and a mod of 10 now you add in spell focus +1 and improved spell focus +1 and a 9th level spell a max dc for only one school of magic being 31 (32 with spellcasting prodigy)

so if you were lvl 10 fighter you would have saving throw of...
27 Fort, 23 reflex, 23 will....only lvl ten and its vs a 20 wiz

(ps. not that a lvl 10 fighter could afford this stuff but I hope you get my point)

So....am I doing somthing wrong or missing somthing??? please tell me your thougts

Realistically, even high level characters are likely to only have a +5 cloak or resistance, a +1 competence bonus from a pale green stone (or +2 from a temporary Heroism effect), and +3 from a skin of the Hero (+1 from Luckstone without Psi book). If you're going to use +5 sacred stuff and other non core gear, then you might as well adapt the DC boosting Psionatrixes for wizard use, and make +5 versions available.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Realistically, even high level characters are likely to only have a +5 cloak or resistance, a +1 competence bonus from a pale green stone (or +2 from a temporary Heroism effect), and +3 from a skin of the Hero (+1 from Luckstone without Psi book). If you're going to use +5 sacred stuff and other non core gear, then you might as well adapt the DC boosting Psionatrixes for wizard use, and make +5 versions available.

It's generally known that the Skin of the Hero is underpriced.

You can get +4 from Greater Heroism or from a high-level bard.

 

[Garboshnik]

The only thing that really gives cheap saves is the cloak of resistance. That's probably the most cost-effective item in the DMG.

 

[Grog]

Even if there is a save to DC disparity at higher levels (I don't really agree with it... as long as players don't build their own equipment ), I do think it's ok. A wizard will still be able to take a fighter type out with his big bang spells before the fighter closes in.

How? Unless the wizard uses no-save spells, like Maze, his non-damage spells are going to bounce off super save-man like ping-pong balls. And if he uses damage spells, there's no way he'll be able to chew through the fighter's hit points in time if he's making his saves against those, too.

Of course, if a high-level wizard just stands there casting damage spells while a fighter's charging at him, he deserves to get butchered...

 

[Darkness]

My only complaint is I think that SR should be removed from the game.

You bring up a good point, actually.

I mean, dwarves get a bonus to saves vs. magic.
So why does everyone else need a special quality that necessitates an additional roll when it can be done with a save bonus just as well?

('course, one could go into the other direction and give dwarves SR. That's a question of taste, I guess. )

 

[Spatzimaus]

How? Unless the wizard uses no-save spells, like Maze, his non-damage spells are going to bounce off super save-man like ping-pong balls.

First, there are a lot of no-save spells. Magic Missile, most ray spells, the Power Word series, Maze/Forcecage, and so on. Shoot a bunch of Scorching Rays at the fighter and he'll be hurting (assume you hit on the rays, which shouldn't be that hard). These spells are great for metamagic, too.

Second, most damage spells save for a partial effect. If Fireball does ~35 damage on average, that super-save Fighter is still going to take 17-18. I've seen characters who make every save still die from the partials.

Third, you can attack indirectly. Don't shoot the Disintegrate at him, shoot it at the ground under him. Stone to Mud on the ceiling, that sort of thing. The Summon Monster series is nice, too.

And fourth, if all else fails, just buff your own fighters and let them go nuts on each other. It may not be the most entertaining way to fight, but it still works.

 

[Darklone]

Of course, if a high-level wizard just stands there casting damage spells while a fighter's charging at him, he deserves to get butchered...

That's what I mean. Any wizard should have all possibilities to choose if he wants to fight with a fighter or not. The Fighter has to rely on his comrades to force the wizard into melee with him.

As Spatzimaus wrote: Use your spells indirectly. Cave-ins are deadly. And yes, I've seen many fighters die with not even one failed save per day. Summoned Monsters with fire resistance grapple the players (there are counters against it, I know) and the BBEG plus some henchies drop scrolls of fireball and firewalls and similar fire spells on the players.

You can always say, hey, that player has saves like hell, you can't do Tactic A. But if he's such a save monster, he will most likely be killed by Tactic B.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

You bring up a good point, actually.

I mean, dwarves get a bonus to saves vs. magic.
So why does everyone else need a special quality that necessitates an additional roll when it can be done with a save bonus just as well?

('course, one could go into the other direction and give dwarves SR. That's a question of taste, I guess. )

That was precisely what I was thinking.

If dragons and demons are inherently resistant to magic, give them a +2 or +4 racial bonus to their saves against it. Why have an entirely separate mechanic for NPC monsters (and monks)?