Saves vs one-round powers?

Geoff Watson

First Post
Normally, powers that only last one round don't have saves.

One of my players was bitching that he couldn't use his "grant a save" to get free of the "one round" powers before the bad guys hit him again.

I was thinking of allowing the "grant a save" powers to be used against the "one round" powers.

Is this a good idea?
Any problems?

Geoff.
 

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I would recommend against it, as strictly speaking a "one round" power may be more advantageous than a "save ends" power - since you are guaranteed to get at least a whole round and your next action out of it (e.g. stunned until the end of your next round).

If the "one round" powers were always less significant than "save ends" powers, I wouldn't worry about it, but since they are not it is a potential increase in the power level of his "grant a save".

One of the problems is that the relative power levels of the 4e powers is pretty opaque. Lots of other stuff is transparent in terms of its design, but it is very difficult to suss out the rhyme and reason behind the powers. That makes them more subject to the law of unintended consequences when it comes to fiddling with them.

So for those reasons, this isn't a change I'd make in my game. "grant a save" powers will help against anything you can save against, but can't help against things you can't save against.

Cheers
 

We discussed this in my campaign too, and in the end I decided not to let the pcs use 'grant a save' abilities against 'until end of turn' abilities. I just wasn't comfortable that it wouldn't significantly change the relative power of UEOT abilities vs. GAS abilities.
 

I'll concur. If there isn't a save then by (perhaps rationalized) definition you can't grant a save sooner than it would naturally occur. The [until the end of the next turn] powers IMO are set that way for reason otherwise they'd have a save associated for them.

Now if a power exists or comes that says, "Grants a save against a power even if that power doesn't normally save." then sure.
 

We should just be careful about at-will powers that impose until-end-of-your-next-turn conditions, both for critters and PCs.
 

We discussed in our group too and decided against. If shoe was one the other foot, they would not like the DM's hobgoblins stealing the Players thunder with a house rule.
 

I like the idea and have allowed it to work from the start.

I see worries about "Next turn" effects simply being different from "Save ends" effects (as opposed to being strictly inferior). But before 4E was released, there was an article about the new "Save ends" mechanic.

In 3.5, multi-round effects (and power recharge) had their duration determined by a low-dice roll. That had two disadvantages:

1- Failure to count turns properly. Ask any player or DM; sometimes, we just miss a turn or two.

2- A fixed, fatalist duration. A player can go do something else once stunned, knowing fully well when to come back.

The article introduced "Save ends" (and power recharge) as a new way to have effects last multiple rounds. By rolling each round at a fixed time, we seldom forget about the effects and can't know in advance when they will end.

I figure "Save ends" are intended to be strictly better than "Next turn". Why would hobgoblins not be able to try shaking off those weaker effects?

Unfortunately, the time at which effects end varies. Some last a whole turn while others can very well end on the next initiative count.

Some effects affect a creature only on its turn (penalty to attacks) while others are, instead, beneficial to others (penalty to defenses). In isolated cases, a power can impose "Save ends" on a hit and "Next turn" on a miss, which can lead to unbalanced results.

Still, in my opinion, the occasional superiority of "Next turn" is a by-product of the duration simplifications. I definitely allow out-of-turn grant-a-save powers to work against "Next turn" effects.

One could even try to change the "Save ends" time to the effect issuer's turn... but I don't want to.
 
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