Saving the Bard

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Bard is hands down one of the most powerful 5e classes. I have no idea why they'd need saving or uplifting. They kick butt in this edition. What is the issue?
Erm, not everyone plays 5e?

Meanwhile, the Bard should absolutely be it’s own class, and be magical.
Agreed. Bards should be separate and distinct from all the other classes, because they fill a niche: the social guy. Wizards: magic. Rogues: thievin'. Warriors: killin'. Who does the talkin'? The priest? No, she's the healer. The bard is the schmoozer.

Thanks, @LuisCarlos17f , but I can't tell if Lindsey is helping or hurting bards. I mean, being a necromancer-bard is pretty cool . . . unless they do choreography.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


DrunkonDuty

he/him
What sort of bard are we talking about?

A character class that fills a given niche in an assumed party that is optimised for an standard type of level appropriate dungeon crawl? And if so, which game system?

A traveling troubadour who spends their time seducing everything and everyone?

One actually based on Celtic mythological figures? A sort of combination of herald, sorcerer, sacred personage, trickster?

Maybe a folk hero who rallies the common folk against tyrannical overlords. Or at least sings some scathing satires about the tyrants?

Some sort of singing warrior who leads with raw charisma?

As far as the character filling a tactical niche thing goes - bards rock. In DnD they have done since 3rd ed. Buffers. De-buffers. Good at subtlety. Good at winning friends, both legitimately and by using mind control. They know all sorts of whacky naughty word. They were never big damage dealers, but that's fine. You don't play a bard hoping to smite the Demon Lord for a 100hp damage.* Other people can do that.

My wife plays a bard in our home Pathfinder game. She loves the range and versatility. Sometimes she gets frustrated by his lackluster damage output. But there is no scenario Iggy (the bard's name) cannot contribute to in some way.

In other game systems there's usually more flexibility in character design, so being a jack of several (if not all) trades is much less restrictive in terms of relative power.

The others types I suggested above are more role play choices; relative power is neither here nor there. DnD can be a bit restrictive when it comes to characters outside the preset archetype. But other game systems would easily accommodate these character types.



*although you could always play a Paladin Bard. :-D
 

pemerton

Legend
Erm, not everyone plays 5e?
What sort of bard are we talking about?

A character class that fills a given niche in an assumed party that is optimised for an standard type of level appropriate dungeon crawl? And if so, which game system?

A traveling troubadour who spends their time seducing everything and everyone?

One actually based on Celtic mythological figures? A sort of combination of herald, sorcerer, sacred personage, trickster?

Maybe a folk hero who rallies the common folk against tyrannical overlords. Or at least sings some scathing satires about the tyrants?

Some sort of singing warrior who leads with raw charisma?
This (or these).

The others types I suggested above are more role play choices; relative power is neither here nor there.
But not this.

One of the PCs in my Prince Valiant game is a wandering performer. Part of what makes the character viable as a PC is that the system includes social resolution. (The character also throws knives when the chips are down.)
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
The idea of party face characters should die in a fire. Not just any fire though. Like a dumpster fire. The idea that an entire class of challenges that have a pivotal impact on the course of play and can be lengthy and involved should be entirely in the hands of a single player while the other players sit back and watch it happen is antithetical to what I consider good play.

Bards are generally cool though. The general transition to them being full casters is a good one. I just do not think they should stand alone in the social pillar.

Also Expertise that is not generally applicable. That too should die in a dumpster fire.
 

Usually we imagine bards playing magic music, but in the most of musical comedies characters aren't always singing. A superhero or magical girl who always is singing in the battlefield may be annoying or even ridiculous.

Bards as characters are popular in the fiction if he is a "Don Juan" ( = a womanizer libertine) but in the dungeons there aren't girls to be dated.

Bards can be useful, but the gameplay isn't fun when in the clobberin' time the other players are kicking-asses and he only is playing a flute, a laud or a harp.

My suggestion is adding some game mechanic to gather magic glamour when is playing music, and later these "points of glamour" are spent for effects as a potions or another single-use magic item (tattoos, runes or talismans).
 


pemerton

Legend
In my first Rolemaster campaign, close to thirty years ago now, there was more than one character who - if they were to be statted up in D&D - would be a bard.

The more memorable one was a snow elf grey moon mage - he had modest melee and judo ability, quite good archery, good social skills, and a range of spells to enhance his schtick - illusions, disguises and shape changes, some charms, etc. He was also an expert athlete and skiier. And new plenty of languages. I don't think he did any singing or reciting of tales.

The idea of party face characters should die in a fire. Not just any fire though. Like a dumpster fire. The idea that an entire class of challenges that have a pivotal impact on the course of play and can be lengthy and involved should be entirely in the hands of a single player while the other players sit back and watch it happen is antithetical to what I consider good play.
Yes, and maybe also no.

Absolutely yes as far as the idea that a particular sort of situation should be the monopoly of a particular PC (either build type, or a particular PC at the table). I think that's acceptable for the most hardcore Advanced Squad Leader-style play, but that's not a RPG approach I personally have any interest in.

But I don't mind PCs whose specialty is the social sphere. Like the character I mentioned above, who was good at disguising himself and engaging in intrigue. In that campaign the players would come up with plans that relied on that PC, plus another who was a full caster with a similar but appropriately stronger spell load out (a mystic, for any RM fans out there), infiltrating enemy cities or citadels or whatever whether as the spearhead for an assault or to collect intelligence.

In my Prince Valiant game, the three primary PCs are all knights - two with Brawn 4, Presence 3 and one with Brawn 3, Presence 4. The former have doubled down on their Brawn with Arms 4, while the latter has Arms 2 but a greater range of social skills. Which have given him a different narrative trajectory from the others - it's not a coincidence that he was knighted in play by a NPC knight; that he was the first of the three to be married; and that when they needed to split the party into a "noble" contingent and a "commoner" contingent he was part of the second contingent (together with the travelling performer mentioned earlier) who infiltrated the village without letting on who they really were.

I am struck by the number of posts in this thread which frame capability and also group play primarily if not purely in combat terms. Especially given this is the General and not the D&D forum.
 


GMMichael

Guide of Modos
What sort of bard are we talking about?

A character class that fills a given niche in an assumed party that is optimised for an standard type of level appropriate dungeon crawl? And if so, which game system?

A traveling troubadour who spends their time seducing everything and everyone?

One actually based on Celtic mythological figures? A sort of combination of herald, sorcerer, sacred personage, trickster?

Maybe a folk hero who rallies the common folk against tyrannical overlords. Or at least sings some scathing satires about the tyrants?

Some sort of singing warrior who leads with raw charisma?

As far as the character filling a tactical niche thing goes - bards rock. In DnD they have done since 3rd ed. Buffers. De-buffers. Good at subtlety. Good at winning friends, both legitimately and by using mind control. . . .
That's a good question. I guess I'm talking about the Public Opinion Bard. Or the Medieval Bard...because for some reason Ed Sheeran is cool (level 12 halfling (modern) bard) but this guy isn't:

It's kind of weird for bards to fill a "tactical" niche, because realistically, if you're effective in combat it means that you've been neglecting your musical talents. But since you're talking D&D that makes sense, given the Three Pillar System: COMBAT! Exploration. social

Traveling troubadour: possibly. Sex scenes don't convert well to RPGs.

Celtic bard: sounds like those are good to go.

Folk hero: will need some saving if the common folk wield common weapons.

Singing warrior: might get beat up by the warrior with raw strength.

 

Remove ads

Top