Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Saving Throws
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 6154293" data-attributes="member: 6680772"><p>But this is a completely different issue. No one's saying that a 3rd level spell shouldn't be more powerful than a first level spell. The question is "Should a, say, 5th level wizard cast the same spell as a first level wizard, and have that spell be more powerful?" And the answer is, well, yes, while that's certainly a reasonable way to take it, it makes no more sense and is no more common logic than, "Spells are spells. Everyone casts them to the same effect. More powerful wizards can cast more more of them, and spells of more powerful effects." I mean, after all, that is the paradigm of Harry Potter.</p><p></p><p>But the reason the TSR way is good is that it found a middle way. Some spells always have the same effect. Some spells scale damage or effect with level. Some spells force saving throws, but saving throws improve with level. A 10th wizard's fireball does more damage than a 4th level wizard's. But a higher level character caught in that fireball has a good chance of surviving because they have more hp and can save easier for half-damage.</p><p></p><p>So, remove the overall spellcasting bonus. Institute a modest save bonus in line with bounded accuracy. And then carefully write each spell, with some of them scaling effects when cast as a higher level spell. Sleep as it is in the current playtest is a good example. Affects a certain amount of hp at 1st level, with more hp effected when cast in a higher slot, which only higher level, more powerful wizards can do. Fireball and Lightning Bolt don't need a spellcasting bonus making the DC difficult -- their damage scales when cast in a higher slot. Have spells like Hold Person being harder to save against, if cast in a higher slot. This gives wizards versatility without making them over powerful.</p><p></p><p>And incidentally, if ability scores are being used for saves, which I don't have a problem with, if I had my druthers I would remove all ability score bonuses from anything class related. That includes fighters and combat. Let attack bonus and damage bonus come purely from class. Strength gives bonuses on feats of strength. Intelligence gives bonuses on lore checks. Wisdom gives bonuses on perception/insight checks. Dexterity gives bonuses on feats of agility or manual dexterity. Otherwise, all you're doing is encouraging players to pump up their prime stat, at the cost of others, and making it easier for the game to go out of balance.</p><p></p><p>Let players make intelligent fighters, dextrous clerics, strong rogues, and wise magic-users.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 6154293, member: 6680772"] But this is a completely different issue. No one's saying that a 3rd level spell shouldn't be more powerful than a first level spell. The question is "Should a, say, 5th level wizard cast the same spell as a first level wizard, and have that spell be more powerful?" And the answer is, well, yes, while that's certainly a reasonable way to take it, it makes no more sense and is no more common logic than, "Spells are spells. Everyone casts them to the same effect. More powerful wizards can cast more more of them, and spells of more powerful effects." I mean, after all, that is the paradigm of Harry Potter. But the reason the TSR way is good is that it found a middle way. Some spells always have the same effect. Some spells scale damage or effect with level. Some spells force saving throws, but saving throws improve with level. A 10th wizard's fireball does more damage than a 4th level wizard's. But a higher level character caught in that fireball has a good chance of surviving because they have more hp and can save easier for half-damage. So, remove the overall spellcasting bonus. Institute a modest save bonus in line with bounded accuracy. And then carefully write each spell, with some of them scaling effects when cast as a higher level spell. Sleep as it is in the current playtest is a good example. Affects a certain amount of hp at 1st level, with more hp effected when cast in a higher slot, which only higher level, more powerful wizards can do. Fireball and Lightning Bolt don't need a spellcasting bonus making the DC difficult -- their damage scales when cast in a higher slot. Have spells like Hold Person being harder to save against, if cast in a higher slot. This gives wizards versatility without making them over powerful. And incidentally, if ability scores are being used for saves, which I don't have a problem with, if I had my druthers I would remove all ability score bonuses from anything class related. That includes fighters and combat. Let attack bonus and damage bonus come purely from class. Strength gives bonuses on feats of strength. Intelligence gives bonuses on lore checks. Wisdom gives bonuses on perception/insight checks. Dexterity gives bonuses on feats of agility or manual dexterity. Otherwise, all you're doing is encouraging players to pump up their prime stat, at the cost of others, and making it easier for the game to go out of balance. Let players make intelligent fighters, dextrous clerics, strong rogues, and wise magic-users. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Saving Throws
Top