D&D 5E Saving Throws

[Chris_Nightwing]

Saving throws have come up in discussion again, possibly from the recent live playtest and podcast:

Interested in off the cuff reactions: What if saving throw DC was determined by the target and not the effect?

Example: A 10th level character has a save DC of 10. Whenever that character makes a save, rolls d20 + stat, must beat 10.

Basically, the way it worked before 3E. What do people think?

I don't think this is the right way to go unless they change a few other things. There's almost no reason to have a good spellcasting ability as it is, and there should be some reason to have intelligence or wisdom or what have you. It seems like a poor fix to the current situation where DC is based on caster level, and caster level again (implicitly from ability increase). Personally, I would rather spell DCs were based on the level of the spell, and that casting a given spell level required a high enough ability. Obviously that would make DCs increase much higher than saving throws, but I wouldn't mind seeing a +1-5 saving throw bonus acquired according to character level - if HP can keep going up, why can't 'virtual' defences?

 

[Weather Report]

From the Slave Lords Bestiary it looks like Monks and Rogues get a bonus die to certain Ability Checks and Saving Throws.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I hate the idea of saving throw DCs being set by level rather than the source. It make all threats equal and I think that is nonsense. It would also take away the last reason spellcasters have for having a high ability score (aside from the tiny handful of spells that require attack rolls).

 

[Li Shenron]

Example: A 10th level character has a save DC of 10. Whenever that character makes a save, rolls d20 + stat, must beat 10.

So that means as the level increases the DC decreases? No, thanks.

 

[Weather Report]

So that means as the level increases the DC decreases? No, thanks.

Total, I do not want any more number bloat (false sense of power gain)/treadmill action.

 

[variant]

I seriously do not want a lot of numbers bloat. Bounded accuracy is the best thing about 5e, if they remove that, I will be seriously disappointed.

That said, I think a system where the DC is set by the target instead of the effect could work. You could have something similar to 1e/2e where the DC is determined by the type of effect instead of Fort/Ref/Will.

For example, you could have a save DC versus 10 for immobility effects. The actual effect hitting you would determine which ability score gives you a bonus to the roll. A mind effecting stun could be Wisdom while a physical stun could be Constitution. While a spell that would have vines wrap around you might be Strength. All of these similar effects would have the same DC, but the chances of taking hold would be dependent on the actual type of effect.

This system would be really easy for anyone to modify to make the attacker roll instead of the defender.

 

[Falling Icicle]

No offense to Mike Mearls, but I think this is the worst idea he's ever had.

 

[variant]

What if, as someone suggested on Twitter, that this system doesn't scale with level and is flat across all levels?

You could add the idea that while the base save DC is set by the target, it is modified by the effect. An example would be, the base save DC of paralysis is 10. The enemy Wizard modifies that base save DC with his intelligence score. So if his intelligence is 18, the save DC would be 14.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I don't get why people are saying this adds number bloat and breaks bounded accuracy. It seems to me that it does quite the opposite.

Currently, save DCs advance according to the caster (or effect) level, and saving throws don't. This is, of course, a problem. The net effect is that characters actually get worse at saving throws at high level, so magic becomes dominant. We all know about the dragon having to roll a natural 16 to save vs. polymorph in the current rules. That breaks bounded accuracy. That is number bloat. Also, in my experience, it's difficult to get players to remember their save DC (since it's written on their character sheet, but only the DM needs to know what it is--with this hypothetical system, everyone only has one number, which only they have to remember).

 

[variant]

I get the idea of bloat from his tweet that says, "ideally, if DCs shift it's in a 5 to 20 range, much like check DCs".

That's a pretty big gap between level 1 and level 20. That would almost on par with 3e numbers bloat.