Saving vs Gas in a contained room...

[Zadam]

Whats everyone take on the following scenario:

PC's are trapped in a room. Suddenly, gas gets vented into the room. The gas forces a save or become unconcious. If the PC makes the save, do they have to make a save again the next round? I assume making the save once doesn't grant some kind of immunity to the gas, but I suppose the PC could hold their breath for a while, to avoid having to make a save again.

I got reminded of a situation years ago, when I was a young lad, that I decided to DM a bit for my group. The guy who was the usual DM would always become a total rules lawyer / control freak when he was a player (actually, he was the same when he was a DM ha!). Anyway, the group got into the above situation, and the regular DM's character made his save against the gas. By making the save he seemed to then imply that he was now not able to be affected by the gas. I told him he has to make a saving throw each round (he actually never said his character was "holding his breath"), and he got really angry and irritated, and seemed to make comments to the effect that this was "bad DMing"...

I dunno, perhaps I should have just assumed the character would hold his breath after the first successful saving throw? Even then though, he would be forced to keep saving every couple of minutes...

Am I right, or not? Whats everyone think? Or better yet, how do the rules specify such a situation?

 

[Crothian]

I'd do it one of two ways. I'd have them save once but with a circumstance negative of like 2 to the save becasue it is incloised.

Or I'd have them save each round but start the DC low and raise it by one each round.

 

[dcollins]

PC's are trapped in a room. Suddenly, gas gets vented into the room. The gas forces a save or become unconcious. If the PC makes the save, do they have to make a save again the next round?

To a certain extent, it simply depends on the precise trap description. Do whatever the trap says: apply once, or apply continuously.

Consider the example in the core rules, DMG ch. 4, "Poison Gas Trap". It says that it's "burnt othur fumes (see Poison)". If you look this up, you see the standard Poison rules with one initial save, and one secondary save. Reading this standard trap, I'd use normal poison rules, and interpret it as apparently the deadly effect of the fumes breaks down quickly in contact with the air.

However, that doesn't rule out a special incredibly deadly trap that keeps applying a poison effect over and over as long as the PCs are in the area.

 

[Zadam]

About treating it according to trap rules: It wasn't exactly a standard trap, the fumes kept being pumped into the room continuously. I agree that if only X amount of fumes was pumped in then maybe one save could have done it, but in this case the creator of the "trap" wanted to unsure that whoever triggered the trap would get knocked unconcious. Being a clever chap, designing the trap such that the gas didn't stop being pumped into the room would ensure that no one could "save" against the trap so easily (ie he expected that intruders would be able to hold their breath, and therefore might be able to avoid breathing the gas long enough for it to disperse if it wasn't being continuously pumped into the room).


I guess at the time I was looking at it from a RP point of view, rather than from a "rules for traps" point of view.

 

[Caeleddin]

If it is a "breath in and get hurt" gas, then I'd give them a Reflex save IF they realise that the gas is being vented in. If they make it, then I'd assume that they were fast enough to take a breath and hold it before the fumes got to them. Once their air is up and they have to breathe in the fumes, the standard Fortitude save will have to be made. Those that failed the initial Reflex save goes straight to the Fortitude save. I'd make them save every round or so after the initial Fortitude save, increasing the DC every time due to increased poison in their system.

If it is a contact poison, go straight to the Fortitude save. Holding their breaths won't help them there.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If they have an easy way out of the room, then I'd just make it a single save and let the move. If it's a sealed room where they have to puzzle their way out, then per-round with increasing DC.

If you just want to knock them out for plot reasons, then just say so and cut-scene it.

 

[Zadam]

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If they have an easy way out of the room, then I'd just make it a single save and let the move. If it's a sealed room where they have to puzzle their way out, then per-round with increasing DC.

If you just want to knock them out for plot reasons, then just say so and cut-scene it.

At the time it was actually a case of "knock them out for plot reasons" (which in itself isnt the best DMing, I know that now), but its was the player (regular DM) who insisted that he be allowed to make a save, in an almost "I know you are doing this for plot reasons, but I don't like being forced down a particular path plot, so I'm going to do everything I can to try and derail your plot device" way.

In hindsight, the guy was a crap DM and an even worse player, this is actually a pretty poor example of some of the dodgey stuff he pulled on us. I remember when he DMed he and his best buddy (who was a player) would figure stuff out and house rule things together outside of the gaming session in a really bad way. As an example, the DM's buddy "luckily" rolled 00 for percentile strength (This was in 2E by the way.... But anyway, not so bad yet), got himself an "exceptional strength bow" meaning he could use his strength bonus to damage while using that Bow. Now in 2E there was some rule about being able to attack twice per round with a bow (cant even remember if it was a core rule or not), but they took it to mean that a bow can attack twice as often as a melee weapon. Anyway, back in those days the guys character had an attack rate of 3/2, ie 3 attacks every 2 rounds. Since bows attack twice as often as melee weapons they decided, he gets 3 attacks per round with his bow. In addition to that, he gets Weapon Specialization in Bow, giving him +1 to hit and +2 to damage. The DM told him he could "multiple specialize" by spending more Weapon Proficiency slots in the weapon, gaining an extra +1 to hit and +2 damage each time.

Anyway, by the end of it, he was a level 1 or 2 character who got 3 attacks each round, each one doing about 1d8+12 damage. Oh we also played house rule that a natural 20 did double damage.

The DM made an "encounter" where we see a Red Dragon from hundreds of yards away. The DM's buddy starts shooting at the Dragon, and since its so far away it takes several rounds to fly to us. To cut a long story short, the guy managed to kill the Dragon single handedly (most of us were melee or 1st level spellcasters), with his uber amazing bow attacks. All this with a 1st (or 2nd... can't remember properly now) level character....

 

[Celebrim]

It depends on how difficult you want to make the trap. Lingering gas effects are one of my favorite ways to up the CR of a trap. I wouldn't recommend traps like that for low or even mid-level characters. IMO, there most certainly are traps with higher than 10 CR.

 

[moritheil]

The DM made an "encounter" where we see a Red Dragon from hundreds of yards away. The DM's buddy starts shooting at the Dragon, and since its so far away it takes several rounds to fly to us. To cut a long story short, the guy managed to kill the Dragon single handedly (most of us were melee or 1st level spellcasters), with his uber amazing bow attacks. All this with a 1st (or 2nd... can't remember properly now) level character....

Sounds like you have more problems with your old DM than with the actual trap mechanics.

 

[Zadam]

Ha! Yes good point, I did digress a bit somewhat! But um yeah back to the topic at hand...