Scaling: How many level 1 characters should it take to defeat a level 10 character?

[Minigiant]

The question is wrong too.

How big will the mob of level 1 characters have to be to defeat a level 10 character of the same class?

30 (20 dead or dying, 10 standing with positive HPs)

 

[Hassassin]

I would like additive power levels. About ten 1st level characters to match a 10th level one, but only two of those to match a 20th level one. Fast progression at first, slower once the sweet spot is reached.

I don't have much hope that 5e will work like this, though.

 

[Kingreaper]

Ok then if we are talking an all fighter situation, with everyone using only normal equipment (being a test of skill rather than wealth) then perhaps 8 or so 1st level fighters should be a good match for a 10th.

I do think being outnumbered should matter far more than it does in D&D.

I think outnumbering should matter a lot, if not dealt with properly. Ie. a massive penalty if you're surrounded (or have four corners/sides under attack in the grid-system) but not necessarily a penalty just for being attacked multiple times (as some systems have)

So you can deal with massive numbers as long as you keep them from getting into the right positions. But the moment you're actually surrounded it's getting very deadly.

 

[Endur]

I voted more than 16.

In 3.x, it would take approximately 24 EL 1's to equal an EL 10. (That's a basic calculation, 3.x EL math can get a bit more complicated when you add additional factors).

Ignoring EL, just looking at HP ... the level 10 fighter in 3.x has probably 10x the hp of the level 1 fighter and greater AC/saves. So durability is >10x.

The greater accuracy, damage, and attacks per round of the 10th level fighter probably also indicates a >10x damage per round performance.

So it looks like durability and damager per round are both greater than 10x for a level 10 fighter versus a level 1.

 

[Umbran]

Define term, "defeat".

If in order to defeat the 10th level character, that character must be dead, that's one thing.

If it is sufficient for the 10th level character to be incapacitated/immobile/captured, that is an entirely different question.

In addition, how much planning can be assumed on the part of the 1st level characters, and what kind of tactics are allowed? A small number of first level characters can probably get a long way if they get to ambush, drop a net, and then a mess of big crates on that 10th level character, as opposed to lining up to take him one at a time, or all bum rushing him with swords.

Which is to say, the level or hit die of the opponents is only one factor in determining the difficulty of an encounter.

 

[Kingreaper]

Assuming that both sides have equal amount of planning time, funds, etc.

And once you've got them captured, killing them isn't significantly more difficulty, so either.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I'm not sure I have a good answer for this.

I know I want there to be a chance that a number of level 1 pcs can take down a level 10 pc, but it shouldn't be easy. I don't like games where the difference between level Y and level Z is so great that it's impossible for the low levels to win, but I also want levels to mean something

So....I know I want the game mechanics to support that X number of level 1 warrior (town guard types) can take down a rampaging Hill Giant.
I know I want the mechanics for some number of Level ones to be able to take down a level 10...I just don't know what that magic number is yet.

 

[Buugipopuu]

I don't like this question because level 1 characters aren't going to be fighting level 10 characters (at least, not in my game). How many goblins a level 1 character can take on, versus how many goblins a level 10 character can take on would be a more helpful way to look at levels. Even then, the answer would largely depend on how they define level 1, whether it is more of an apprenticeship level or a heroic level, and it would also depend on class design, resource structure, etc.

What? Goblins can't be characters now? You goblin-racist. I bet you're one of those Kobold-lovers, aren't you? The answer to "how many goblins can an Xth level character take on?" should always be "depends on what level the goblins are".

 

[hafrogman]

No number of level 1 characters will EVER defeat a level 10 character, because the level 1 characters will line up and attack no more than two at a time. Sheesh, it's like you guys have never seen a kung-fu movie.

 

[Mengu]

What? Goblins can't be characters now? You goblin-racist. I bet you're one of those Kobold-lovers, aren't you? The answer to "how many goblins can an Xth level character take on?" should always be "depends on what level the goblins are".

Actually I'm a goblin lover, not too fond of kobolds. That's why goblin is always at the tip of my tongue.

And of course, it does depend on the level of the goblin, I was thinking of "1 hit dice" goblins, or "standard level 1 goblin skirmisher" depending on which terminology you prefer.

On second thought, orcs might be a better comparison, since they specifically gave orcs as an example of a creature that might be challenging at low levels, but maintains its threat at high levels.

And really, it's hard to give numbers any way you look at it. A first level wizard might be able to take out 5 orcs, while a first level fighter can only take out 1, but the fighter can take out another one in the second encounter, another one in the third encounter, another one in the fourth encounter, etc, while the wizard's kill rate drops to zero after the first encounter. At level 10, the wizard might be able to take on 20 orcs in one encounter, only to be tapped out after that, while a fighter can take out 5 in one encounter, and continue to take out 5 per encounter. Meanwhile the rogue might only be able to take out 1-2 orcs per encounter, even at high levels, but the one he takes out is usually the shaman, or the chief, or the two snipers on the hill.

This business of what you can kill, is not a good measure of the effectiveness of a character. I'd go so far as to say 4e taught us that lesson if any previous edition had not, with the Warlord, and the Wizard.