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Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

True. However, in 3.x with clerics and curing wands a plenty, most healing was magical so the speed of natural healing in the gameworld never seemed to "affect" the story or it's believability (presuming of course that having healers who can heal wounds at a touch, repeatedly, after every combat is "normal" or believable). In 4E, natural healing is the predominant method and so the speed (which has been increased from 3.x) is doubly noticed. Just saying... again.;)

Actually, it's only "predominant" in parties with no cleric (unless there's something I'm missing out on), because healing words just gives you the most bang for your healing-surge buck...

I suppose it comes down to what's "fun" or "unfun" for the majority. The mechanic works well enough provided you get over the rapidity-of-healing hurdle (or ignore it) - which as time goes on is becoming slightly easier and easier to do.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

...which leaves people looking for a more traditional D&D experience a convenient way to "get over" or "ignore" the hurdle.
 

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The thing is, the game assumes the HP system for 4E. If you can't "naturally" heal yourself up to full after a battle, there is no alternative method, and 4E combat assumes you start at full HP. The way the 4E adventuring day is set up, not starting the day with full HP and surges means that you can't really complete an adventuring day. The Cleric(or whatever) cannot spam cure spells, and there is no 3E style sucking on the healing stick(wands of CLW/LV). If you were going to remove how surges work, you would have to reintroduce 3E style healing or change the entire system. This begs the question of whether changing things is really worth the hassle?

This is a common aspect to 4E. The rules are really tight, and well designed to the point where they don't leave much room for change. The base skeleton is very flexible in what it can do and almost anything can be added to it, but any attempt to do anything to change the base skeleton itself is a nightmare.
 

The thing is, the game assumes the HP system for 4E. If you can't "naturally" heal yourself up to full after a battle, there is no alternative method, and 4E combat assumes you start at full HP. The way the 4E adventuring day is set up, not starting the day with full HP and surges means that you can't really complete an adventuring day. The Cleric(or whatever) cannot spam cure spells, and there is no 3E style sucking on the healing stick(wands of CLW/LV). If you were going to remove how surges work, you would have to reintroduce 3E style healing or change the entire system. This begs the question of whether changing things is really worth the hassle?

The cleric can spam healing words. Twice every five minutes. Each one adding some d6s + Cha mod to the healing surge value. Your "short rest" goes from 5 minutes to maybe 30 sometimes, and you move on.

This is a common aspect to 4E. The rules are really tight, and well designed to the point where they don't leave much room for change. The base skeleton is very flexible in what it can do and almost anything can be added to it, but any attempt to do anything to change the base skeleton itself is a nightmare.

I find this statement to be pretty dubious in the general case. I'm sure there are specific cases where it's true, but I've been tinkering with the skeleton for a while now and I find it much easier to predict how a given change will impact other areas of the game than I ever did in 3E.
 

The cleric can spam healing words. Twice every five minutes. Each one adding some d6s + Cha mod to the healing surge value. Your "short rest" goes from 5 minutes to maybe 30 sometimes, and you move on.



I find this statement to be pretty dubious in the general case. I'm sure there are specific cases where it's true, but I've been tinkering with the skeleton for a while now and I find it much easier to predict how a given change will impact other areas of the game than I ever did in 3E.

1. Spamming Healing Words during several consecutive short rests is how its done in most 4E games unless the DM forbids it. Its just that Artificers/Bards/Warlords can do the same thing. The difference is if you have a "leaderless" party, you can use the generic surges.

2. That depends on the changes. I would assert that its more difficult to change 4E on a fundamental level, and much easier to change on a superficial level.
 

1. Spamming Healing Words during several consecutive short rests is how its done in most 4E games unless the DM forbids it. Its just that Artificers/Bards/Warlords can do the same thing. The difference is if you have a "leaderless" party, you can use the generic surges.

I did say a cleric was required if you made these changes. Note that there are players who will not see this as a bug.

2. That depends on the changes. I would assert that its more difficult to change 4E on a fundamental level, and much easier to change on a superficial level.

Changing any game on a fundamental level has ripple effects. I find that 4E's design makes me more aware of these ripple effects, and, were I as timid as I used to be, that awareness might make changes more difficult for me to make.

I find as time passes, however, that I am more comfortable with striking out on my own. So I find that awareness of the ripple effect is useful in ensuring that the changes I make end up having effects I find desireable instead of backfiring.

EDIT: It's also liekly that 4E makes ripple effects more apparent to those who might exploit such things; this is less problematic in my view because those I play with are likely to notice them (and, if I ask politely, ignore them) anyway.
 
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It is probably a... what, a two to four times as big as a problem in, say 3E. But is it fundamentally that different? The magnitude is still the same.
The problem is healing is awfully fast.

I was actually surprised that healing surges recovered fully after each day, but I prefer it for gameplay reasons. "Fixing" it (and yes, I am talking house rules here) would probably require for slower healing surge regeneration rate. (1/5th of your max healing surges per day, rounded down to a minimum of 1?)

Heck, put healing surges on a condition track, using the Endurance skill. Tougher characters will heal faster, and it'll take days to recover from a tough day of getting beat up.
 

True. However, in 3.x with clerics and curing wands a plenty, most healing was magical so the speed of natural healing in the gameworld never seemed to "affect" the story or it's believability (presuming of course that having healers who can heal wounds at a touch, repeatedly, after every combat is "normal" or believable)...

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Good stuff... we went from playing 1E all last year, to a 3.5 experiment earlier this year (haha, the books were on firesale, after all...) and then 4E.

Our Temple of Elemental Evil guys spent a lot of days/weeks 'down' doing the 1hp per night style of healing; then they added a second cleric and it went from weeks to days, as the clerics memorized nothing but heals, slept, more heals, slept, etc. That's fun!

In 3.5, they stocked up on the CLW wands and never spent a night healing again! Survive the fight, and everyone's back up to full. We're not hitchhiking anymore, Stimpy, we're riding!

4E actually requires some overnight extended rests to recover dailies and surges... really slowing my enjoyment way down. lol

I agree with the sentiment that if you modify your damage narration against the PC's, you don't run into problems then with Schroedinger's Wounding. (And by modify, I mean eliminate it...) Works for us. My group is loving 4E, but I agree that this element of it feels significantly different than the other editions. Feels like AWESOME. :heh:
 

Out of curiosity, has anyone here tried adding SWSE's damage threshold/condition track concept to 4E? I rarely see 'what is a HP?' arguments in SWSE boards because the condition track makes it more clear. If you just take HP damage, it's morale, fatigue or cosmetic injury. A condition track step is an honest-to-goodness physical injury. Make the damage threshold equal to a healing surge?
 

Schrödinger's Wounding doesn't exist if you choose not to have game terms have direct meaning in the narration (i.e., choose not to narrate damage or healing in this particular case). But that seems rather....lame.....to me.
It is true there is no fixed correlation between hit points lost and gained (game mechanical events) and physical damage suffered and healed (gameworld events). But on any given occasion of damage or healing something happens in the gameworld, and it can be narrated with no need for retconning or suspension of description.

1. Someone got hit by 12 damage and goes down and is dying(I haven't said that this is the only hit he took)
2. Because this guy can recover by his own, can be shouted into action or can actually be healed by magic the nature of the hit he took can't be specified at this point.
3. Only after the the character got healed can you say how he was wounded based on the method of how he was healed. (But I wanted to use the sentence "can neither confirm nor deny" as joke).
You are ignoring that you can say that the game mechanical event of regaining hit pionts does not mean that there has been an ingame event of repair to the physical injury, but rather corresponds (on that particular occasion) to an ingame event of recovery of the will to fight.

At most your issue is with the rate of healing. But this has nothing to do with a wound being either a wound or not a wound depending on whether or not an inspiring word or some other healing effect is used.
I agree with this. The 4e rules for damage, healing, healing surges, short rests - in short, the bundle of rules that give rise to so-called "Schroedinger's Wounding" - are quite distinct from the rules for recovery after an extended rest. The latter is intended to remove mechanical impediments to play, and (for those who use it) can be written off as a genre convention.

In episodic play, the DM can narrate a healing break between episodes, thus removing the problems that arise from this disjoining (unless the "episode" runs on for game days or game weeks, anyway).

In sandbox play, it is generally anathema for the DM to tell the players what they must do, so there is nothing enforcing an extended rest to allow the narration to rejoin with the game mechanics. You could change the rules to make it so, but then we wouldn't be discussing the 4e rules anymore.
I still don't see why it has to be up to the GM, and why players who are offended by the non-verisimilitudinous nature of 4e extended rests won't just call their own longer healing times, even though the rules do not insist upon them (or, alternativley, make sure that there is a cleric in the party and narrate how that cleric heals everyone up during the extended rest). If they won't do these things, yet continue to complain about the mechanically permitted rapid healing ruining their senses of disbelief, they have only themselves to blame.

Ithere will be many statements that you are ignoring rules that cannot be quoted, and that you are playing the game wrong despite insta-healing being clearly what was intended by the 4e designers.
I don't know exactly who you have in mind as the author of these "many statements". But the 4e rules obviously draw on rules systems from other RPGs with narrativist inclinations (eg HeroWars/Quest, The Dying Earth).

Those other rules systems have better discussions of how to narrate fortune-in-the-middle action resolution mechanics than the 4e rulebooks (one of the weaknesses of those rulebooks in my view). But there is nothing in my statements (or those from LostSoul, or Scribble, or Lacyon, or TheCasualOblivion) explaining and defending the 4e healing and recovery mechanics that could not be reconstructed pretty straightforwardly from those other rulebooks. Fortune-in-the-middle mechanics really exist (and have existed in RPGs for many years, including the saving throw rules in 1st ed AD&D). People play RPGs using them. And the narration of their games does not collapse into contradiction.

I have never seen pages and pages of complaints about so-called Schroedinger's Wounding in HeroWars. It doesn't come up, because the rulebooks explain how to narrate combat in that game. The only reasons I can see for it continually coming up in relation to D&D is that either (i) simulationist views (ie that there must be a fixed correlation between every game-mechanical event of hit point gain or loss and every ingame event of physical injury or recovery) are so entrenched that other ideas aren't contemplated, or (ii) the 4e rulebooks are so poorly written that they fail to communicate the key ideas of narrative freedom and flexibility in the relationship between game mechanical events and ingame events (despite comments in both PHB and DMG that flavour text is just flavour text and ripe for reskinning from moment to moment).

That's not to say that anyone should enjoy narrativist D&D. I don't care who does or doesn't enjoy it. But it's possible, it needn't involve contradiction or absurdity, and the 4e rules support it.
 
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Last weekend I played in a couple of 4E games, which is fantastic because I am usually the poor soul who runs, and this problem didn't come up. Not even once. We had seven combat encounters between the two games, with some great narration in most of the cases, and not once did anyone complain.

I was thinking about this thread as we were playing, and took some time to talk to the GMs and the other players about it. The consensus, to a person, was that I was thinking about it too much. All of that leads me to this conclusion: hong is right. Sometimes we think about our pretending to be elves too much.
This.

In my past few 4e games (paragon level PCs, running Age of Worms) NOT ONCE have the players stopped battle and asked conversations like:

  • DM: Ok, you got hit for 17 and are taking ongoing 5 poison.
  • Player: Dangit!, What kind of damage was it? Was it psychological or physical? What parts were actual wounds and which were just getting the wind knocked out of me, and which were just a psychological hit?
  • DM: Ummmmm... its 17 points of damage and ongoing 5 poison.
  • Player: OK, fine, but what KIND???
  • DM: The abstract kind. Let's just play the game.
  • Player: But.... but... I need to know if the Warlord can heal me with a rousing word or if I need the cleric to magically heal my gaping wounds.
  • DM: Don't worry about it, HP are abstract and you have lots of reserves, we just call 'em healing surges in 4e.
  • Player: What part of the body did he hit with the 17 damage?
  • DM: AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
If I asked my group about this thread, they would definitely tell me that I am thinking too much about it and let's just friggin play!
 

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