Schroedinger's Wounding (Forked Thread: Disappointed in 4e)

[thecasualoblivion]

All this thread does is to confirm my thesis that 3E D&D rules were complicated and detailed enough to allow simulationists to rationalize to themselves that "realism" was addressed while the rules didn't truly do so, and that 1E/2E stalwarts can't accept change.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Forked from: Disappointed in 4e 4E allows you to determine the damage model your character operates under.

Is this new to 4e? A lot of folks have argued with me that 1e through 3e use the same hp paradigm, so I'm a bit confused.

Me, I would (and did) say this is new.

So, "Schroedinger's Wounding" is a problem, but not an insoluble problem. In much the same way, scurvy is a disease, but not an incurable or inevitable disease.

Certainly scurvy exists, but it is rather silly to tell people not to take long journeys because of the risk of scurvy.

I would agree with you....but I would also say that it is rather silly to pretend that long journeys without fruits & vegetables are a good idea. Similarly, it's disingenuous (at best) to present Schroedinger's Wounding as a drawback to 4E that doesn't require a constant barrage of fruits & veggies (in the form of working to avoid it) to solve.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah! Creativity is lame!

No, but 4e is certainly a combat-focused game, so that the narrative meaning of hit points will come up at least as often as in previous editions.

Creativity isn't lame.

Having to jump through hoops to narrate common occurances at the table is extremely lame.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

It's a problem because it requires the players to define game mechanics instead of playing the definition and being blind to those same game mechanics.

Exactly. Sorry, I already gave out my XP allotment for today.

I think 4e is less about Schroedinger's Wounding than it is about Schroedinger's Healing.

This is definitely a valid observation.

I will note that the vehemence of some in this thread suggests that I have struck a bit of a nerve with my observations re: Schroedinger's Wounding. Of course, IME observations of things that don't exist don't usually have this much of an effect.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

The problem only arises if you care about narrating the damage.

Yup.

 

[Shroomy]

In all my 4e sessions so far, the narrative meaning of hit points, other than something like "I'm dying," "I'm need healing," or "I'm out of healing surges," has not occurred, not once. Personally, I don't care much and largely gave up narrating the effects of my combat actions (though not my actions) in non-game terms back in my BECMI days when I realized that a constant stream of flesh wounds or glancing blows sounded kind of dumb to my adolescent ears.

 

[firesnakearies]

Similarly, it's disingenuous (at best) to present Schroedinger's Wounding as a drawback to 4E that doesn't require a constant barrage of fruits & veggies (in the form of working to avoid it) to solve.

I'd say that it takes a constant barrage of working to CREATE the problem, in the form of assigning impossibility to occurrences which the game itself does not declare or hint at being anything other than the status quo.

The game itself never states that for the protagonist heroes in its epic fantasy world, healing from any wounds short of fatal ones is not achievable by seemingly non-magical effects, or that it cannot happen in periods of time which would seem amazing in our non-fantastical real world.

The rules seem to support the opposite view, in fact. Thus, the game itself isn't creating a logical inconsistency or a gap in internal realism. It's just presenting a world which is apparently a bit TOO magically adventurous for you. The only contradiction, the only conflict which requires all of this "constant working" you refer to, is overlaid onto the game from the outside, from the pre-conceived ideas of gamers.

I have a pre-conception that people absolutely cannot shoot fireballs out of their hands. All of my experience agrees with this, therefore any world in which people CAN do this is obviously unrealistic. So if a game appears to allow for this absurdity, then the GAME ITSELF must be broken, and I need to "constantly work" to reconcile this disconnect so that the game world makes sense to me.

That sounds silly, right? Well, have you considered the possibility that you're doing the exact same thing?

You have the same pre-formed idea about how quickly and under what circumstances a wounded fantasy hero can heal physical injuries. The game doesn't support your idea, though, in rules OR in descriptive text. You're putting that contradictory concept into the game, yourself, and then saying that the game itself has this inner flaw which causes a narrative/gameplay disconnect. But it's your imagination, not the game.

Just accept the premise that the game itself clearly indicates, which is that real healing can come from a variety of sources, many of them not overtly "magical" in an Arcane or Divine sense, and that a protagonist HERO in this fantastical world can, in fact, be savaged to death's doorstep today, and be healthy as a horse tomorrow, even WITHOUT the glowy hands of a cleric getting involved.

All the problems go away at that point.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I'd say that it takes a constant barrage of working to CREATE the problem, in the form of assigning impossibility to occurrences which the game itself does not declare or hint at being anything other than the status quo.

So long as "assigning impossibility to occurrences which the game itself does not declare or hint at being anything other than the status quo" means "narrating the meaning of damage in any way, shape, or form", I suppose you are correct.


RC

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Sometimes an orange is simply an orange, and hp are simply hp. Making more out of it than that can make your head hurt.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think the whole issue would have been lessened with one simple change. If WotC had not called the resource Second Wind pulls from "Healing Surges", and simply called them "Reserves" or something like that, people would have an easier time wrapping their heads around the concept.

That's what they call them in Iron Heroes, and that's a game that embraces the "mighty thews" genre of S&S fantasy. IH stole it from 3e Unearthed Arcana, who got it from Omega World, where it was a way to account for the lack of magic healing in the setting. Reserves are the "oh, I've been clobbered, but give me five minutes and I'll shake it off" mechanic, and healing surges are quite obviously a mutation of the concept.