Scott Thorne, a retailer, comments on recent events

[Alzrius]

Paizo has NO shareholders, at least not in any typical sense of the word as they are NOT a publicly traded company.

This was my understanding also. You can't buy stock in Paizo Publishing (though I certainly would if I could).

For what it's worth, the Wikipedia definition of a stakeholder is the following:

A corporate stakeholder is a party that can affect or be affected by the actions of the business as a whole. The stakeholder concept was first used in a 1963 internal memorandum at the Stanford Research institute. It defined stakeholders as "those groups without whose support the organization would cease to exist."[1] The theory was later developed and championed by R. Edward Freeman in the 1980s. Since then it has gained wide acceptance in business practice and in theorizing relating to strategic management, corporate governance, business purpose and corporate social responsibility (CSR).

The term has been broadened to include anyone who has an interest in a matter.

So the stakeholders in Paizo are the employees and the customers and really anyone who cares at all about how they're doing.

Lisa Stevens and Vic Wertz would be the only people "higher" than Erik on the Paizo totem pole who therefore might have a say in his decision making

Lisa Stevens is the CEO, so she definitely outranks everybody in the company. But I'm not so sure about Vic Wertz - he's their Technical Director, as opposed to Erik being Publisher. I'd say Erik is the second-in-command in the Paizo hierarchy.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Lisa Stevens is the CEO, so she definitely outranks everybody in the company. But I'm not so sure about Vic Wertz - he's their Technical Director, as opposed to Erik being Publisher. I'd say Erik is the second-in-command in the Paizo hierarchy.

Vic Wertz was one of WotC's earliest employees. He also was a stakeholder at Wizards of the Coast, and when Hasbro pulled up to the door with a provervial truckload of cash -- a chunk of it fell on him, too.

Vic is the co-founder of Paizo. He, along with Lisa Stevens, -- they both own the company.

That isn't the only thing Lisa Stevens and Vic own together. They also happen to own a home together - and furniture - and the world's largest Star Wars memorobilia collection. They sleep in the same bedroom, too. Clearer now?

So while the "publisher" may technically outrank the "technical director" on the totem pole of corporate speak, I think it is fair to say that he and Lisa run the company as its officers and directors.

 

[Ourph]

I accept your point if you replace Dark Sun (which had player & DM content) with Eberron (which was split like FR).

I knew I'd forget something.

That said, if DM material sells so well for Wizards, why are they cutting back? Dark Sun consolidated the player/DM books, and Neverwinter appears to have done the same. DMG3 went by the wayside (of course there aren't that many epic-level games, Wizards, you never put out the DM support book!). They haven't bothered with any campaigns after their first, just assorted scattershot adventures.

It looks like they are cutting back on print products overall, but I'd say what is left is more of an even split between DM-centric and player-centric than we were used to. Essentials pretty much split things down the middle. Compendium is useful for both. Two books are clearly for players. The DM's Kit and Monster Vault are clearly for DMs. Upcoming releases also seem pretty evenly split. I wouldn't argue that WotC are increasing their DM-centric output. I would say they are cutting back across the board, but what is left seems to favor the DM side much more than their previous output.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I never got this one. That is to say, I never got the arguments against this one.

Once a wizard learns to travel the planes, why would they ever not run straight for the literal planes of eternal bliss and just chill there forever? I mean, it's heaven.

Planetar bouncers.

"And you are?"

"Who am I? Who am I? I am Lord Necrophillius! Scourge of the Twelve Kingdoms! Eater of Souls!"

"Ehhhhhhh...mmmmm...you're not on the list. Step back behind the velvet rope, please."

"WHAT?"

"I said step back- nicely, might I add- and I don't like repeating myself. Back. Off. Sir."

 

[Wicht]

Something else interesting to ponder: If you check out the Amazon top-selling RPGs right now, Paizo's Bestiary 2 is at #1. The Pathfinder Core book is at #3. The current top selling 4e book is at #6. The Player's Handbook (4e) is at #8, outperforming the Redbox which is at #9.

Seeing as how these things don't mean much on a daily basis, I thought it might be interesting to do a followup to this every week or so for a while.

Currently on Amazon Gaming Bestsellers:
Bestiary 2 as at #3 (its been fluctuating around the top 3 all week),
Pathfinder Core is #5
Red Box has jumped up to #6 (a big move since yesterday, I believe it was around 14)
Pathfinder APG is at #7
D&D Rules Compendium is at #8
There's a tile set at #9 and
Monster Vault is at #10.

A couple of thoughts, I'm guessing that the amount of sales needed to move books up or down this list in the short term is pretty slight and that the list is a projection of expected sales. That being the case, holding steady is a bigger feat than initially moving up as it shows the sales are meeting projections. Three of the top four slots are being held by novels by a relatively unknown author, which makes me wonder just how many sales Amazon does account for in the gaming field. Not as many as they did about two years ago would be my guess.

 

[El Mahdi]

Just to correct something that you've now repeated twice.....I'm pretty darned sure that the statement that Erik made about publicly traded companies needing to be more cautious about their bottom line etc was directed at the decision making process at WOTC, not Paizo. Paizo certainly has stakeholders because they are a business (Lisa Stevens and Vic Wertz would be the only people "higher" than Erik on the Paizo totem pole who therefore might have a say in his decision making, but obviously every employee there is also a stakeholder, in so far as they have an interest in seeing the company do well, given as it keeps them employed doing something they love)!

Paizo has NO shareholders, at least not in any typical sense of the word as they are NOT a publicly traded company...

I stand corrected then. I certainly misread what Erik Mona was saying then.

 

[TheFindus]

The store that I visit sometimes to buy games here in Germany has more Pathfinder stuff than 4E. That is because most of the 4E stuff has not been translated into german, but there is a lot of german Pathfinder stuff.

Now, does that say anything about the state of the revenue of 4E products? I say, no.

Here is what I think happened: when WotC introduced 4E everything was supposed to be a core product. That is why we saw PHB 1, then PHB 2, then PHB 3. And DMG 1, then 2. And MM 1, then 2. Then MP 1 and 2. And so on.
If you are an older roleplayer like me, this does not bother you very much: you see the stuff in book 1 as the basis of where to start the game and book 2 and 3 as extra rules that you can use, maybe want to use.

As a new player, you have a problem. Do you need books 2 and 3? Can you play with just book 1? WTF should you buy?

Then the rules themselves: They are not easy to understand for a beginner. Easier than 3.x in my opinion, but not that easy for a complete beginner. Maybe there are too many options. As an older gamer, I have no problem ith this, but I play with unexperienced players and they sometimes do.

Last but not least, the split between 4E and 3.x. With 3.x you have the OGL. That was a good solution while there was only 3.x. But other companies could use that open liscence for ever for free. And because of this, WotC created their own competion for 4E. And Pathfinder thrives on that. That is why Pathfinder needs less errata: The system has been tested for 10 years. And Paizo was not responsible for the errata during that time, WotC was. So basically, concerning the rules system, Paizo is living off of the work that WotC has done. Which is fine, because that is what WotC has gotten itself into.

So now WotC is looking for new customers. And they see that new customers are confused by the many books with 2 and 3 in the title and the rules that are either 1. not that easy to understand or 2. too different from 3.x.

And that is why they created the Essentials line, which addresses the older roleplaying crowd by a "new" old-school flair (just check the old school cover art and the old school webpage design with the Deities and Demigods background). And the rules are easier for introductory play.

At the same time, though, they realize, that players nowadays use digital tools more often. And these people ask for digital tools that work. And they find that about 50.000 DDi subscribers probably make 6 million $ every year, without any printing costs.

And this is the direction where they are going: More internet services (which hopefully will work), less books but more digital content and books that make it clear that they are not core books, but offer options instead, in hardcover format.

And then WotC will see where to go from there. If people want to buy more fluff in book-form and crunch digitally, they will do that. If people still want MM3 in book-form, they will give them that.
Make no mistake: If WotC actually does deliver on digital tools, 4E will go through the roof. I am fully convinced that this is what people want.

So, to me, what they are doing now makes sense (in the meaning that I think I can follow what is going on).

Paizo does what they have always done: publish rpgs the old fashioned way, including the pdf.-format. And I do not mean that in a bad way. But it is not "going digital" the way we are seeing it with WotC.

Just my thoughts.

 

[13garth13]

I stand corrected then. I certainly misread what Erik Mona was saying then.

Not a big deal, and I certainly hope I didn't come off as snarky or pedantic.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[El Mahdi]

Not a big deal, and I certainly hope I didn't come off as snarky or pedantic.

Cheers,
Colin

Not at all. I don't feel anyone did. And I hope I didn't either. It was a good discussion, and I even learned something.

 

[BryonD]

And they find that about 50.000 DDi subscribers probably make 6 million $ every year, without any printing costs.

That is a huge point. There is no doubt that the subscription model is a great move.

But, it also allows for both sides of the debate to be right, depending on what you are looking at.

If the nosecount of players can be represented by DDI, then actual number of people playing D&D has plummeted. Yes, a ton of cash flow results. So the claims of success are validated. End of discussion. But, the claims of dramatic losses in player base are validated at the same time. Still end of discussion.

It certainly leads one to wonder what could be done with DDI supporting a game with historic levels of fan base.

And there still seems to be the perception that the DDI # is a running count, and not a current subscriber total. How many have dropped? (And I readily admit that 50% would still be a healthy $3 Million/year)

Make no mistake: If WotC actually does deliver on digital tools, 4E will go through the roof. I am fully convinced that this is what people want.

I don't agree here. I mean, you may be right about wanting digital tools. But I don't know anyone who is in the anti-4E camp because of lack of digital tools. Improve there and I'm certain there will be benefits seen. But no massive shift will happen. At the end of the day opinions of the game itself are key.

Paizo does what they have always done: publish rpgs the old fashioned way, including the pdf.-format. And I do not mean that in a bad way. But it is not "going digital" the way we are seeing it with WotC.

Just my thoughts.

Agreed. But I tend to think, for now, the subscription element is more important than the digital element. Having people signed up to be automatically charged greatly increases the ability to forecast cash flow, and even more importantly, turns the hills and valleys into a constant high mesa. As long as you customers are happy overall, they don't really think about purchases. They buy everything instead of looking at this months offering and making selections.

Digital is good too. And that will grow. But right now it is the marketing game theory working here.