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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5893171" data-attributes="member: 87792">Let me start by saying that this resembles almost no game of 4e I have ever played.  It does resemble what happens when a Batman wizard or other Scry + Fry merchant gets ahold of 3.X at mid-high level unless the DM bends over backwards to prevent this.  You've got that backwards.  As a DM, I love minions.  Minions allow me to use hordes of enemies.  Sure, three or four minions aer nothing.  But quantity has a quality all of its own.   When I use minions, I use them by the dozen.   If I want to stage an orc invasion in 3.X and my PCs are 11th level, the rank and file orcs will be CR 1/2.  And are likely to be only able to hit the PCs on a natural 20 - and that if the wizard hasn't put up something like Protection from Arrows to render that a moot point.  Wizard using fly and protection from arrows literally can't be hurt by any of the orcs if he stays out of reach unless the orc manages a confirmed critical with his javelin (which will do an average of 3 points of damage).  If I can pump the wizard's AC to 21, there is no chance of a confirmed crit.  1 wizard vs 100 non-minion orcs?  AWESOME. Minions used properly on the other hand are Awesome.  I want to stage the same invasion against 11th level PCs in 4e rules.  This time I use minion orcs and keep the xp value of an orc constant - so I raise the level of the orcs from 4 (in 4e) to 12 and then drop them to minons.  Although they have one hit point this means they can take one hit rather than the two it would take to kill them under normal conditions in 4e.  Because the orcs are minions of the right level instead of needing a ridiculous number to hit, they need about an 11.  And do about 10 points of damage per hit.  There's no protection from arrows spell in 4e.  So if the wizard tries the gunship strategy (and in 4e the orcs outrange him), 100 orcs are going to throw javelins at the wizard.  On average 50 are going to hit - for a total of 500 points of damage in one round.  Wizard pincushion.  Taking out an invading army of 100 minion orcs is Awesome.  (If I hadn't used minions, the orcs would be doing an average of 12 points of damage each but only hitting on a 19 with their javelins and the wizard would be hitting on 2s rather than 8s - the situation is a little better than it would have been in 3.5, but not a lot.) The thing to remember about minions is that they have literally twice the damage output of their xp value of normal monsters.  Minions are there so you can have certain Awesome threats (i.e. hordes) or certain minor threats (drudges or otherwise unskilled) and have them work as real although minor threats when working together rather than a joke that can effectively be ignored.</blockquote>

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