Scroll use and caster level question

[0-hr]

Suppose a 3rd level Duskblade (who must be 5th level in order to cast 2nd level spells) finds a scroll of Dimension Hop (which is a 2nd level spell for duskblades, wizards, and sorcerors).

By default, the caster level on the scroll would be 3 (because a 3rd level wizard could have created it). Can the Duskblade use the scroll without having to make a check?

I'm confused because the Duskblade has a caster level of 3 and the scroll is caster level 3 - but the Duskblade could not himself cast that spell until he was 5th level.

 

[Jhulae]

Suppose a 3rd level Duskblade (who must be 5th level in order to cast 2nd level spells) finds a scroll of Dimension Hop (which is a 2nd level spell for duskblades, wizards, and sorcerors).

By default, the caster level on the scroll would be 3 (because a 3rd level wizard could have created it). Can the Duskblade use the scroll without having to make a check?

I'm confused because the Duskblade has a caster level of 3 and the scroll is caster level 3 - but the Duskblade could not himself cast that spell until he was 5th level.

If the spell is on the duskblade's list, they can cast it from the scroll. But, if the duskblade can't cast the spell yet (because of not having access to 2nd level spells), a caster level check needs to be made.

Which, of incidental note, is why wands are usually better in some cases. A spell only has to be on a caster's list to successfully cast from a wand. No caster level check needed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By default, the caster level on the scroll would be 3 (because a 3rd level wizard could have created it). Can the Duskblade use the scroll without having to make a check?

Certainly. Just like a Sorcerer-5 can use a caster level 5 scroll of Fireball without a check, despite not being able to cast the spell himself until 6th level. Conversely, a Wizard-5 requires a check to use a caster level 6 scroll of Fireball, even though he can cast the spell himself.

The requirements are "The spell is on your list", and "Ability score is high enough", and "Caster level is at least equal to the scroll's caster level". Fireball is on the Sorcerer's list, his caster level (5) is at least equal to the scroll's caster level (5)... as long as his Charisma is at least 13, he's set. (Assuming it's an arcane scroll, naturally.)

It is not a requirement that the Sorcerer's caster level is at least equal to the minimum level at which he could cast the spell himself, only that it's at least equal to the caster level of the scroll.

The same goes for the Duskblade.

From the SRD:
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
• The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully.

A significant point here is for 1st-3rd level Rangers and Paladins, who can use wands, but cannot use scrolls. They don't have a caster level of 0; rather, they have no caster level at all, so they're incapable of making a caster level check.

Note - the summary of information in the Spell Completion activation method does state: "To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake." But there are no mechanics given in the activation method description; the only place we have mechanics for a mistake are in the Scroll description, which, as noted above, only compares your caster level to the scroll's caster level.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

A significant point here is for 1st-3rd level Rangers and Paladins, who can use wands, but cannot use scrolls. They don't have a caster level of 0; rather, they have no caster level at all, so they're incapable of making a caster level check.

You sure?

 

[Hypersmurf]

You sure?

"Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level."

Compare to an ability check, for example. If your Dexterity is 0, you make a Dexterity check with a modifier of -5. If you have no Dexterity score, you can't make a Dexterity check.

-Hyp.

 

[Falling Icicle]

"Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is one-half his ranger level."

So the question is, does "no caster level" equal CL 0? I may not be an english or math professor, but I'm fairly certain that having none of something is equivalent to having "0" of it.

On a slightly off-topic note, do you allow 1st-3rd level rangers and paladins to use wands in your games?

Compare to an ability check, for example. If your Dexterity is 0, you make a Dexterity check with a modifier of -5. If you have no Dexterity score, you can't make a Dexterity check..

I have never heard of a creature without a dexterity score. But I humbly dispute your assertion about being able to make a dexterity check when your score is 0.

From the SRD, "Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless."

I doubt that someone who is "motionless, rigid and helpless" can use any dexterity based skill or take any action that would call for a dexterity check.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So the question is, does "no caster level" equal CL 0? I may not be an english or math professor, but I'm fairly certain that having none of something is equivalent to having "0" of it.

Consider undead or constructs, with a Con of --. This is very different to a Con of 0.

Or an Int of --, again different to an Int of 0.

Consider Remove Blindness, a Conjuration (Healing) spell that does not heal any points of damage. If it healed a number of points of damage that happened to be 0, it would heal more than that when cast by someone with the Augment Healing feat; there's a difference in this case between not healing, and healing 0 points.

Consider a net thrown by a character with 14 Str. Thrown weapons add Str bonus to damage dealt; if the net dealt 0 points of damage, the total would be 2 points. But the net does not deal damage, so Str bonus is not added. There's a difference between dealing 0 points, and not dealing damage.

On a slightly off-topic note, do you allow 1st-3rd level rangers and paladins to use wands in your games?

Certainly: "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)"

I have never heard of a creature without a dexterity score.

See the Formian Queen for an example.

The phenomenon is detailed under Nonabilities:

Nonabilities: Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0.

But I humbly dispute your assertion about being able to make a dexterity check when your score is 0.

From the SRD, "Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless."

I doubt that someone who is "motionless, rigid and helpless" can use any dexterity based skill or take any action that would call for a dexterity check.

An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Let's say a Psion had taken Dexterity damage sufficient to put him at Dex 0. He cannot move, but he can still undertake purely mental actions, like manifesting powers. At the start of combat, he will make an initiative check with a modifier of -5; on his turn, he can take actions that don't involve moving.

Now let's say we have a Formian Queen, with a Dex of --. Per the description of the Dexterity nonability, she uses her Int modifier in place of her Dex modifier for initiative checks. This option is not available to the Psion, since he has a Dexterity score... which is 0. She doesn't have a Dexterity score at all, and different rules apply.

-Hyp.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I stand corrected.

 

[irdeggman]

Certainly. Just like a Sorcerer-5 can use a caster level 5 scroll of Fireball without a check, despite not being able to cast the spell himself until 6th level. Conversely, a Wizard-5 requires a check to use a caster level 6 scroll of Fireball, even though he can cast the spell himself.

The requirements are "The spell is on your list", and "Ability score is high enough", and "Caster level is at least equal to the scroll's caster level". Fireball is on the Sorcerer's list, his caster level (5) is at least equal to the scroll's caster level (5)... as long as his Charisma is at least 13, he's set. (Assuming it's an arcane scroll, naturally.)

It is not a requirement that the Sorcerer's caster level is at least equal to the minimum level at which he could cast the spell himself, only that it's at least equal to the caster level of the scroll.-Hyp.

Which is also the only way (via a magic item with a preset caster level) a sorcerer can cast a 5 HD fireball since he can't cast one (using his spell slots) at a lower caster level than 6.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is also the only way (via a magic item with a preset caster level) a sorcerer can cast a 5 HD fireball since he can't cast one (using his spell slots) at a lower caster level than 6.

While I agree, others will argue that the 6th level sorcerer with one negative level can cast a CL5 Fireball.

I think he can't, since 6th is the minimum level at which a sorcerer can cast Fireball.

-Hyp.