Searing Light

Well, replicating 8th level sorcerer/wizard spells or effects in line with those spells is a valid and safe use for Wish, correct?

Yep.

If memory serves, there is a 7th level spell called "Reverse Gravity" that basically turns g from, say, 9.81 m/s^2 to -9.81 m/s^2, so messing around with gravity is certainly within the limits of the Wish spell.

Messing around with gravity through the Reverse Gravity spell is one thing. Having a moon-sized mass pick up enough speed to obtain orbit is not the equivalent.

Yes, but the point of bringing Spock into this was to show, through use of analogy in fiction, what people can accept highly intelligent characters as capable of doing, much like people who talk about what Ajax was capable of doing when discussing high level fighters.

Except that intelligent creatures cannot do what Spock did, no matter their Intelligence score. Intelligent creatures are capable of doing many things, yes. Time travel -based on merely having a high stat- is not one of them.

As a side note, you're also comparing scifi to fantasy, and mixes the two genres always bugs me (you can imagine my feelings on Warhammer). It's not inherently bad in any way, just my personal taste.


One spell functioning in an AMF is nowhere near the same as warping reality with purely your mind.

I'd agree with Pergentile, in that some of your comparisons seem:

unrealistically far stretched.
 

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Given that magic is equivalent to science in D&D...

...seeing as how magic is more advanced the medical science is... (restoring sight, removing disease, heal, raising the dead)

...if we were going to figure out all of the implications of magic, one of them would be the capacity of reproducing the capacities of science

...which will be capable in the future (perhaps one hundred years from now) to reproduce what Dandu has produced here.
 

Messing around with gravity through the Reverse Gravity spell is one thing. Having a moon-sized mass pick up enough speed to obtain orbit is not the equivalent.
How massive is the moon we're talking about? As noted previously, moons can vary in size and weight.

Also, the thought occurs to me; it might be possible if we're using Danny's Shrink Item Boulder idea to set a pebble in the right position first, then unshrink it.

Assuming, of course, the laws of momentum don't get upset with us.

Except that intelligent creatures cannot do what Spock did, no matter their Intelligence score. Intelligent creatures are capable of doing many things, yes. Time travel -based on merely having a high stat- is not one of them.
Are we talking about in real life, or in DnD?

As a side note, you're also comparing scifi to fantasy, and mixes the two genres always bugs me (you can imagine my feelings on Warhammer). It's not inherently bad in any way, just my personal taste.
Perhaps I've been playing too much KOTOR.

One spell functioning in an AMF is nowhere near the same as warping reality with purely your mind.
How so?
 


Given that magic is equivalent to science in D&D...

I don't agree with this.

...seeing as how magic is more advanced the medical science is... (restoring sight, removing disease, heal, raising the dead)

I don't see how this proves anything.

...if we were going to figure out all of the implications of magic, one of them would be the capacity of reproducing the capacities of science

Magic usually bypassing the laws of science (lifting objects with no support, creating fire from nothing, etc.). Yes, it can replicate scientific effects, but that in no way makes it replace science.

...which will be capable in the future (perhaps one hundred years from now) to reproduce what Dandu has produced here.

Again, you've proven nothing from a game mechanics standpoint. You've implied that since science can do something at maybe some point in our realistic future, magic might be able to replicate it in a game.

Sure, that's true. Now show me how.

How massive is the moon we're talking about? As noted previously, moons can vary in size and weight.

If we're taking speed into account for the moon, then I'd say any size. Otherwise you'd have people crashing moons (no matter the size) into the game world, or shooting inkpens at such high speeds through opponents.

Also, the thought occurs to me; it might be possible if we're using Danny's Shrink Item Boulder idea to set a pebble in the right position first, then unshrink it.

I'm sure there are ways to go about it, especially at an epic level. It probably requires some sort of combination of effects, possibly including Shrink Item, using Wish to aim the scope correctly, etc.

Are we talking about in real life, or in DnD?

In D&D. I'd equate psionics as affecting warping reality rather than magic using solely the mind. As I understand it, using your mind to manipulate magic to manipulate reality is about as straightforward as using your mind to manipulate your body to manipulate reality. However, as far as I can tell, psionics skips the middleman, just letting you use your mind to manipulate reality.

At least, it seems that way to me.

Perhaps I've been playing too much KOTOR.

I've never played it, but as a Star Wars fan, I can be jealous.


Because in that scenario, the mind should be able to manipulate reality just as well without magic as with it (and yes, as far as I know, psionics are stopped in an AMF as well). Intelligence, as described from the SRD:

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.

Now, if you can somehow use your character's reasoning to affect reality in such a way without magical aid, then you've accomplished what I've mentioned. However, it is not the same as magical usage, which is a 3rd party manipulator employed by the mind to get the job done (much like using your mind to tell your legs to walk you the hell out of the AMF).

Dandu wins it's a fantasy world any thing is posible even me spelling words right somethimes

Personally, I see the reasoning "it's a fantasy world" to be a copout. To me, you should have solid reasoning why it should work, while balancing three things: fantasy, realism, and balance. Those should all be accounted for.

For the moon in question:
1) In terms of fantasy, it makes a small amount of sense (more in a scifi setting). I can definitely see it.
2) In terms of realism, I don't feel it works great, but I feel the fantasy portion overshadows realism enough to allow it.
3) In terms of balance, I feel there's a lot of stretching going on here. Show me the right combination of effects, and I'll buy it.
 
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Again, you've proven nothing from a game mechanics standpoint. You've implied that since science can do something at maybe some point in our realistic future, magic might be able to replicate it in a game.

Sure, that's true. Now show me how.

I have no interest in showing you how for the following reasons:

1. It is a thought experiment, don't take it so seriously.
2. This would never enter into an actual D&D game so don't take it so seriously.
3. Nothing, but still, don't take it so seriously!
 

If we're taking speed into account for the moon, then I'd say any size. Otherwise you'd have people crashing moons (no matter the size) into the game world, or shooting inkpens at such high speeds through opponents.
Now that you've brought it up, it should be possible to de-orbit a moon in DnD. The first thing that comes to mind is to use some sort of mass driver to hurl a really massive piece of rock off in the opposite direction of the desired movement. Perhaps a Hulking Hurler build, then.

In D&D. I'd equate psionics as affecting warping reality rather than magic using solely the mind. As I understand it, using your mind to manipulate magic to manipulate reality is about as straightforward as using your mind to manipulate your body to manipulate reality. However, as far as I can tell, psionics skips the middleman, just letting you use your mind to manipulate reality.
I see what you're getting at, but mechanically psionics and arcane magic are identical. If you want to argue this from a mechancial point of view, there's no distinction between psionics and magic as to how they warp reality outside of the fluff.


Now, if you can somehow use your character's reasoning to affect reality in such a way without magical aid, then you've accomplished what I've mentioned. However, it is not the same as magical usage, which is a 3rd party manipulator employed by the mind to get the job done (much like using your mind to tell your legs to walk you the hell out of the AMF).
So... truenaming? :p
 

Now wish may not be able to get the moon to right speed, ( i personally believe it could but...) but certainly Miracle can (with the help of a deity what can't you do). Also i'm sure if said wizard spent the appropriate amount of time and money he could whip up a 10th level spell to achieve his goal of Moon Rotation.

Fallenibilis
 



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