D&D 5E Second Edition Reverse Engineered D&D 5e race design and over 40 example races

Duan'duliir

Devil of Chance
Australia's getting the limited edition cover? Cool. Thought that'd be america only.

On topic, based on some of the online leaks I've seen, I doubt that all of the races would have the 11.5-12.5 points that you define as balanced.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Australia's getting the limited edition cover? Cool. Thought that'd be america only.

On topic, based on some of the online leaks I've seen, I doubt that all of the races would have the 11.5-12.5 points that you define as balanced.


On the contrary, I think the Volo's races enhance the argument that there is a secret point-buy system at work, particularly with things like the Lizardfolk having a subclass feature, namely the Natural Armor class of 13+Dex. The races with negatives gain significant advantages, as well...
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Not yet. Only the limited edition special cover has been released in my country. I'm glad to hear my systems prediction that WOTC would release races with minus attributes has come true.


Do let us know your thoughts when you have a chance, the stats are available online...
 


Duan'duliir

Devil of Chance
On the contrary, I think the Volo's races enhance the argument that there is a secret point-buy system at work, particularly with things like the Lizardfolk having a subclass feature, namely the Natural Armor class of 13+Dex. The races with negatives gain significant advantages, as well...
While I can see where you're coming from, I'd like to point you to the Orc. Trading the Brutal Critical and Relentless Endurance traits for a -2 Int, Powerful Build, and Aggressive does not make 12 points. It makes 7. Unless mechanical weight is assigned to Powerful Build, and a negative modifier has less weight than a positive one (e.g. -1, +2 respectively).

The Yuan-Ti Pureblood is opposite end of the spectrum - 28.5 points.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
While I can see where you're coming from, I'd like to point you to the Orc. Trading the Brutal Critical and Relentless Endurance traits for a -2 Int, Powerful Build, and Aggressive does not make 12 points. It makes 7. Unless mechanical weight is assigned to Powerful Build, and a negative modifier has less weight than a positive one (e.g. -1, +2 respectively).

The Yuan-Ti Pureblood is opposite end of the spectrum - 28.5 points.

Powerful Build, based on the four examples now on hand, is likely not a zero point feature, and it seems probable an ability negative is not weighted identically to a bonus; hence the Orc looks OK to me.

Yuan-Ti doesn't seem that bad, considering most of their stuff is probably ribbons (BFF with snakes?).
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Crawford did say in the Gameholecon panel that the Monstrous races were perfectly balanced for Organized Play against the other options; it seems to me that the Yian-Ti is being overrated due to having a large number of minor abilities...
 

Duan'duliir

Devil of Chance
Yuan-Ti doesn't seem that bad, considering most of their stuff is probably ribbons (BFF with snakes?).

Crawford did say in the Gameholecon panel that the Monstrous races were perfectly balanced for Organized Play against the other options; it seems to me that the Yian-Ti is being overrated due to having a large number of minor abilities...


+3 in ability scores (+6 pts)
+2 cantrips (treating AF snakes only as a cantrip) (+4 pts)
+1 spell (noncombat @ same level) (+0 pts) - (I feel like I'm being generous with treating suggestion as non-combat, as it definitely has combat uses: "drop your sword", etc.)
+1 Magic Resistance (+18 pts)
+1 damage resist (+0.5 pts)

And thats me having forgotten the condition resistance, if thats worth anything.

Powerful Build, based on the four examples now on hand, is likely not a zero point feature, and it seems probable an ability negative is not weighted identically to a bonus; hence the Orc looks OK to me.

Even if a negative is only worth -1, that would leave powerful build being 4 points, which would requre a reanalysis of the goliath. I'm rushing this post as I've a test soon and will be leaving for it soon, but when I get back, I'll see if I can have a look at the specifics of it
 
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Duan'duliir

Devil of Chance
Ok, so I've run the numbers over the current system, and (assuming a -ASI is only -1, not -2 pt) I have the following numbers:

[SBLOCK="Race Points"]Aasimar: 12.5 (Assuming each transformation is a 2nd level spell, and stating their heal as a damaging power taken from the average damage at average level (10.5 at 11))

Firbolg: 9.25 (2 noncombat spells as same level, then hidden step as a noncombat spell (invis) two levels early)

Kenku: 12 - The most balanced race in the book

Lizardfolk: 20 (Hungry jaws as damaging power for average damage and counting thp as damage, assuming a con mod of +3)

Tabaxi: 15.25 (That speed boost is 60 feet half the time, assuming no ability bumping speed, but if you have an ability to dash as bonus action that is a speed of 60 + 60 + 60 in one turn then 0 the next (average 90), which once your speed increases, shoots ahead of not having this ability)

Triton: 20 (3 combat spells at same level wizard gets is 12 alone)

Bugbear: 9.75 (assuming no weight on PB, treating it as reach 10 1/2 of the time)

Goblin: 13.75 (Fury of the Small - Damaging power, same calculation as Aasimar heal but 1/short. range is wonky (literally any range), so gave them benefit of the doubt and said range 5 feet).

Hobgoblin: 18.5 (Save face as a combat spell equal level, 1/short or long rest)

Kobold: 4 (Grovel, Cower & Beg same as Save face)

Orc: 8 (again, negative ASI taken as -1 point, not -2 points, same as kobold)

Yuan-ti Pureblood: 28.5 (still)[/SBLOCK]
This is an average of 14.3 points under Coronoides' system. Bugbear, Firbolg, and Orc are all under by 2.25, 2.75, and 4 respectively, so I'd estimate that Powerful build is 2.5, and estimate that a negative ability score is worth nothing, which would bring Bugbear up to 12.25, Firbolg up to 11.75, Orc up to 11.5, and Kobold up to 5. Grovel, Cower & Beg may be worth more than I gave it credit for.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=6801453]Coronoides[/MENTION] Amazing work! :)

I decided to take your system for a spin and create a Gith race, with Githyanki and Githzerai sub-races.

To begin with, I looked at the MM and realized that with their innate spellcasting trait, the PHB Tiefling's Infernal Legacy is a good model for level-delaying innate spells.

Then I looked at your take on the Githzerai in the PDF.

[SECTION]GITHZERAI
**1/2 Medium humanoid (gith) Speed 30
Languages: Common and Gith
Dex+1[3-20}, Int+1{3-20} (P 4).
Traits:
Insight skill (P 2)
Mage hand at will (X 2)
Psychic strike +1d8 psychic damage to unarmed attacks, at 5th level this is raised to +2d8 psychic damage (I 4.5).
Total 12.5
Lesser Traits 3: at 3rd level Featherfall and Jump both 3 uses replenished by a long rest. At 5th level See Invisibility 3 uses replenished by a long rest.[/SECTION]

Comparing your "lesser traits" (worth no points in the point-buy system) to the Tiefling's Infernal Legacy (which you value at 3.5 pts), however, it looks really wonky.

[SECTION]Infernal Legacy.You know the thaumaturgy cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the hellish rebuke spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the darkness spell once with this trait and regain the ability to do so when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.[/SECTION]

As near as I can tell you're somehow making the determination that non-combat spells are worth NO points (irrespective of how many are granted or how often you can use them). Is that where you're coming from? Could you walk me through your reasoning here?

I would assume that both featherfall and jump usable 3x/day roughly equates to hellish rebuke (at 2nd level) 1x/day.

----------

Something like this for a Githzerai is what I'm pondering...

[SECTION]Githzerai
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1. Your Wisdom score increases by 1. [2 + 2 = 4 pts]
Innate Spellcasting (Psionics). You can innately cast mage hand at-will without components, and the hand is invisible. At 3rd level, you can cast shield once per long rest. At 4th level, you can cast feather fall and jump three times per long rest each. At 5th level you can cast see invisibility once per long rest. Your innate spellcasting ability is Wisdom. [2 + 3.5 + 0 + 0 = 5.5 pts]
Tower of Iron Will. At 4th level, gain proficiency in one of the following saving throws of your choice: Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. [2 pts][/SECTION]

While this totals 11.5 points (out of total 12) using your system, it seems like completely discounting featherfall / jump and see invisibility in the point buy is a mistake.

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EDIT: Also, I'm starting to notice what seem like errors in your point-buy system. For example, on the traits table you value Fiendish Blessing at 1 point.

[SECTION]Fiendish Blessing: The AC of the cambion includes its Charisma bonus (+3)[/SECTION]

Whereas a Natural Armor of 13 + DEX you value at 6 points.

Clearly there is a major discrepancy.
 
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