See Invisibility

[Valmur_Dwur]

Ok, lets break this down:

Astral-appear normal although you can see their silver cord
IMC: appear silvery per MoP

Ethereal-appear translucent per hong's OA reference
IMC: same

Invisible-appear normal
IMC: this is where it gets tricky the DM (that's me) has too take into consideration several things. How the person who is invisible is acting and how the pc who sees this person sees those around the invisible person is acting. So you need to figure how the person who is invisible is acting ie: Does he look like he's sneaking around? Does he stop and interact with other people? Then you need to do the same with the pc. Either give them a roll for spot or another skill like scry, search etc. or RP it out by telling the pc verbally or with a note what he perceives to be going on. This is fun if you plant a couple of decoys to mimic some things that someone who is invisible might do

 

[BlackBart]

From the text of the OA shaman's spirit sight ability:

"A shaman of 2nd level and above can see ethereal creatures (including spirits) as easily as he sees material creatures and objects. The shaman can easily distinguish between ethereal creatures and material ones, because ethereal creatures appear translucent and indistinct." -- OA p.24

This makes no reference to see invisibility whatsoever. While it may provide some insight as to how to deal with ethereal detection, it's also a specific class ability. I could just as easily dismiss this as specific to the Spirit Sight ability.

Remember, See Invisibility specifically states:

The character sees any objects or beings that are invisible, as well as any that are astral or ethereal, as if they were normally visible.

Also, the spell description specifically states:

The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility, though an astral traveler is easy to identify if he has a silver cord.

You and Valmur_Dwur have both presented methods that specifically do determine the method used to obtain invisibility, understanding that silver cord for astral if applicable.

I suppose that I have already convinced myself of my take on this, but I'm trying to find a general consensus as to how most people handle the spell.

 

[hong]

This makes no reference to see invisibility whatsoever. While it may provide some insight as to how to deal with ethereal detection, it's also a specific class ability. I could just as easily dismiss this as specific to the Spirit Sight ability.

Your point being...?

Remember, See Invisibility specifically states:
[...]

Remember, you asked the question:

Does this interpretation seem valid at all for ethereal creatures, which have no material presence, and yet are revealed with a see invisibility spell?

The spirit sight ability indicates that the said interpretation can certainly be valid, in that the lack of a material presence has absolutely no bearing on what conclusion you reach.

If you already know the answer you want to hear, don't bother asking the question.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Well we know the rules don't mention anything about being able to distinguish invisible/visible beings with the See Invisible spell. I think the debate here is whether or not to add such an effect to streamline gameplay. Maybe this thread should be moved to the House Rules board. Maybe I'm reading this thread wrong tho'. I think my brain is becoming addled by constantly switching forum categories.

 

[BlackBart]

Your point being...?



Remember, you asked the question:



The spirit sight ability indicates that the said interpretation can certainly be valid, in that the lack of a material presence has absolutely no bearing on what conclusion you reach.

If you already know the answer you want to hear, don't bother asking the question.

I lurk here a lot, didn't think I'd get such a rude response from you. Silly me.

My point being that Spirit Sight != See Invisibility. I indicated why I didn't think it was an entirely valid interpretation, that's all, as it is specific to a class ability that is not core. While it can be valid, it can also not be valid.

As I said, I was looking for a consensus, and when I first asked the question, I didn't know which way I'd go, hence posting it in the first place.

Material presence had everything to do with my post, which was in response to how somebody was adjudicating what invisibility "allegedly" does to light:

Perhaps they would have some kind of aura around them to indicate that the light is bending around them rather than reflecting off of them.

Most likely not the case for ethereal/astral, as you aren't exactly there.

 

[hong]

I lurk here a lot, didn't think I'd get such a rude response from you. Silly me.

Would you like me to be rude? I can be rude if you want.

My point being that Spirit Sight != See Invisibility.

Such perspicacity.

I indicated why I didn't think it was an entirely valid interpretation, that's all, as it is specific to a class ability that is not core. While it can be valid, it can also not be valid.

Such insight.

Most likely not the case for ethereal/astral, as you aren't exactly there.

And if you aren't exactly there, making you appear as if you are there could easily be thought of as having visual side-effects of its own, no?

 

[kreynolds]

I can't believe this thread is still going!

 

[Mr.Binx]

If it helps any, three different gaming groups I play with have all reached the consensus that the spell See Invisible does not grant the ability to differentiate between visible/invisible creatures. 2 of the groups we play with the house rule that you are able to differentiate. The base arguement for us was whether or not to be anal and stick to the rules or to go with house consensus and make it a bit more akin to the way most people imagine it working. Unfortunately, even after house ruling it in two of the groups, this is still a subject that constantly gets argued about in all three. Until it's clarified by WotC personnel, it's probably better off to just have your group take a vote on this subject.

 

[hong]

I can't believe this thread is still going!

Sorry, it's that time of month for me again.

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Re: See Invisibility

If you have this ability, and you have a brick wall in front of you that is invisible, you can't see what is on the other side of the wall because you see the wall as it truly is. The ability simply negates invisibility.

This is precisely why See Invisibility should not totally negate the invisibility, rather it should allow you to see through the invisible target.

Think of it as making the invisible target transparent.

Character One has See Invisibility up.
Character Two does not.

Character One sees a brick wall.
Character Two sees the Dragon waiting on the other side of the brick wall.

I do not think that Character One should be penalized on information that he would normally have, just because he has a divination spell up to give him other information.


The first part of the See Invisibility spell implies that you cannot see through the brick wall with the phrase "normally visible".

"The character sees any objects or beings that are invisible, as well as any that are astral or ethereal, as if they were normally visible."

However, when you read the rest of the spell:

"The spell does not reveal the method used to obtain invisibility…",

this implies that you get the information that something is invisible, just not the method of invisibility. This sentence would not really be needed if you did not know that something was actually invisible. Taking these two sentences together implies to me that you see both, an indication that something is invisible along with the ability to see it normally.

Hence, with the brick wall example, I think a colored transparent interpretation is best. Otherwise, you are penalizing a character for having a divination spell up. IMO.