Selan- A SE Asian campaign (Critical rebuilding)

[Nyeshet]

You do know that the recent 'Tome of Magic' had an entire section on binding spirits to one's self to gain various skills, powers, etc? Basically the class gained the ability to bind more and more potent 'spirits' / vestiges as it gained levels, but there is no reason you could not make it into a feat chain:

- bind (one) lower level spirit (no pre-reqs)
- bind (one) mid-level spirit (pre-reg: Know [religion] or Know [planes] 4 ranks, thus unless religious or maybe arcane one could not take this prior to level 6)
- bind (one) high level spirit (pre-reg: Know [religion] or Know [planes] 8 ranks, thus unless religious or maybe arcane one could not take this prior to level 15 - or 5th level for the magical / religious classes)

- bind second spirit (of current maximum or lower) (pre-req: any binding feat)
- bind third spirit (of current maximum or lower) (pre-req: bind second spirit)
- bind fourth spirit (of current maximum or lower) (pre-req: bind third spirit)

Although I separate the 'bind second/third/etc spirit, it could be argued that there is little need for such. If all of one's feats go to this - taking Bind (one) Lower Level Spirit at first level and Bind Additional Spirit at first and every third level thereafter, one would only have 7 lower spirits by 18th level. The main issue is how powerful a spirit can be bound at any given level - and knowledge pre-reqs make certain that few can actually bound more than a lesser spirit at any level, and only higher ones if they spend their skill points on a cross-class skill. While four ranks (for 'mid level spirit' at sixth level) is not too problematic, the higher power spirit at level 15 would be a major drainage issue for skill points into a cross class skill, making it unlikely, especially considering the feat drain to make use of it (at least 3 feats - bind lower, bind mid, and bind higher level spirit - more if multiple spirits are to be bound).

Anyway, you would have to decide what bonuses are gained from such spirits, but otherwise there is no reason to not use a feat chain instead of the Binder class in "Tome of Magic: Pact, Shadow and True Name." Perhaps a few minor skill bonuses could be gained from a lower level spirit, while a class ability or two (say the class abilities of a second level rogue, but no class skills, etc) for a mid-level spirit or perhaps casting as a second level sorcerer as a mid level spirt power. A higher level spirit could perhaps grant abilities of a second level combined with some class skills or bab increase or perhaps class specials of a fourth level class, or perhaps the abilities from the first two levels of a PrC. Or it may be a special ability of a creature or race, perhaps. A mid level spirit might, when bound, grant the races traits of an elf or dwarf, for instance. Or perhaps the breath weapon (but little else) from a half-dragon template or some such.

In the Tome of Magic, each time a binding occurred a skill check (or Will save, I forget which) was rolled. If the check/save failed the character gained the abilities, but they also gained physical / personality features of the creature bound. Perhaps they would become hunchbacked or grow a third eye. Perhaps they would gain a rank scent or their teeth would fall out. Perhaps they would continuously stutter or would become unusually aggressive, etc. It would require DM supervision to make certain the PC was played correctly if the result of the check/save failed, but it would add more character to the player, I think.

Another issue was that the binder was described as often persecuted - main religions often taking offence to the idea of someone binding a spirit to them. Granted, the check / save is meant to reflect a Pact being made between the two, with the spirit more strongly affecting the binder if the spirit was stronger than the binder at the time of the pact forging (thus the gaining of some overt physical / personality traits if one failed the save/check). There is no reason, however, to presume that the binder is not, in fact, able to bind a spirit against its will, but it may require making it such that the effect of failure is non-binding or possession by the ghost / spirit instead of the typical effect.

Anyway, what do you think. Could this be helpful?

 

[Aikuchi]

(giggles) -- coincidently I just started reading ToM (a couple minutes ago) ---

 

[Sound of Azure]

Wu Jen Redux

That's an excellent idea. An elemental focus doesn't seem right (although we will keep the elemental spells themselves for now).

Redesign of the Wu Jen (Witchdoctor)

This class is based on extracting power from spirits through binding and pact. (I really need to get Tome of Magic!)

So, some potential ideas:

Add in unsavoury image, like a warlock

Fold in Spirit sight aspect from Shaman class

Warlock damage reduction?

Keeping taboos and spell secrets as is

No Mastery ability at 6th level
since there is no elemental ability any more, this ability is removed. spell secret is gained instead.

Spirit servant, that is the source of the Wu jen's power
-Dragon printed a very good version of the Sha'ir class in #315. The mechanic of the Gen(elemental familiar, basically) searching for spells on the behalf of the binder seems to fit here. It also relies on the diplomatic ability of the binder to even get spells from the elemental powers (spirit world in this case).
-I would use the Wu Jen spell list, and add Cleric domains as appropriate (Likely Knowledge, Divination, Death, Darkness, and such)
-Spells per day is smack dab in between Sorcerer and Wizard, and slightly more spells known than a Sorcerer.

Problem: This assumes the use of a single spirit that gets more powerful. I would think that a binder would have many spirits.
Problem: Sha'ir is charisma based, whereas Wu Jen is originally Intelligence based. Does charisma suit this kind of character? I can see the case for either ability. Or perhaps multiple abilities: Intelligence for Spells known, and charisma for spells per day and Spell DCs?

 

[Sound of Azure]

Pacts and True Names and Shadow Magic, Oh my!

Look away for a second, and see what happens?

Thanks very much Nyashet!

I'm going to look at a way to fold those abilities into the "Gen" mechanic above.

Good excuse to buy another book!

 

[Nyeshet]

Shadow magic was good but a little weak. True name magic was awkward. I have seen better attempts at creating a skill based variant of magic - such as Elements of Magic, Mythic Earth, for instance (although it was created for d20 modern, as I recall, but it can be altered for more classic D&D style without too much effort). Pact magic was a little odd. It focused too much on combat, which is why I suggested a generalized variant using feats, such as my suggested style above.

It is a good book, but I think it could have been better. Shadow could have been stronger, and Pact could have used a feat system - thus allowing more general use of it and more versatility in the types of spirits bound (rather than the few - albeit highly fluffy, yet highly combat focused - 'vestiges' used instead).

True Name magic has been attacked (with some justification) on ENWorld boards several times already due to being odd, confusing, and sometimes arguably broken (both in an underpowered and overpowered way, depending on the situation and the effect) in mechanics, requiring a very specific magic item to be workable at all at higher levels, etc. It can work, but it needs some significant work on the part of the GM to be user-friendly for the PCs. Otherwise the PCs are going to want to use the 'rebuild' feature in the new PHB2 to redo their character once they reach mid to high levels.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Nyashet

Shame about Shadow Magic, I was really looking forward to it, having enjoyed the 2nd Edition Tome of magic's shadow mages. I can always tweak, as with anything.

I have seen a lot of criticism of the True name stuff, bit I am luckily not really interested in it.

Thanks for the insight.
I'll probably get the book anyway, though.

 

[Aikuchi]

Problem: This assumes the use of a single spirit that gets more powerful. I would think that a binder would have many spirits.
Problem: Sha'ir is charisma based, whereas Wu Jen is originally Intelligence based. Does charisma suit this kind of character? I can see the case for either ability. Or perhaps multiple abilities: Intelligence for Spells known, and charisma for spells per day and Spell DCs?

Discussion:
Charisma fits well I believe when dealing with spirits and making pacts for power
It would make the class MAD (multiple attrib dependancy), but so is the Favored Soul and Dragon Shaman I believe. Bonus spells is Int but Cha determines the DC or ivce versa. Seems suitable to me

A single spirit may provide different things or perhaps as the character levels, the spirits 'feed's on the casters growth in power as well; able to 'fetch' and trade more power in and out to its binder. Or perhaps, a single spirit with many aspects or 'servant's or extensions of itself. It cannot fully manifest without breaking 'natural' laws but can "leak" varying aspects of it to the binder.

Ooo

 

[Nyeshet]

Shadow magic is not that bad - it just tends to fall on the weak side of normal. I think the problem is more to do with the way illusions are treated in 3e than the class itself (although a few more castings per day would be nice). One advantage of shadow magic is that as you go up in level your lower level powers shift from spell to spell-like to supernatural. Another is that spells gained can be cast more often. However, like the Warlock, the overall power of the spells tend to be lower than typical (although a few of the higher level ones can be quite potent, I admit).

It is a good class, but compared to a straight caster (such as a specialist (Illusion) wizard or a Sorcerer focusing on illusion magic) it tends to be a little weak in comparison.

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Regaring your Wu Gen redo as a Witchdoctor, note that by the description of the Shaman in the Complete Divine (not in the OA), a 'spirit' is defined as any incorporeal undead, fae, or elemental creature. While I cannot readily imagine a 'ghost' becoming more powerful (ie: gaining new levels), I can see an incorporeal fae perhaps becoming more powerful with time. Indeed, if the fae realm is a 'spirit realm' then it works even better. While in the fae realm they might partially manifest into the Prime - thus being incorporeal versions of themselves: more readily hidden, more readily able to escape, etc. If they fully manifest they equivalently plane shift into the Prime, becoming solid and losing all the benefits and penalties of the being incorporeal. If they rarely enter the Prime (perhaps only the strongest can planeshift, or perhaps less powerful fae can enter only in specific areas where the planar boundaries are weaker), then fae would typically be seen as incorporeal ghost-like 'spirits'.

Such beings would be seen as a variant of outsiders that had notable power / knowedge. Indeed, it could be that weaker fae - unless in a rare location where planar boundaries are weaker or unless significantly powerful - need to possess / bind with an individual in order to 'enter' the Prime. They may consider such persons their vassals or agents (as the individual is notably weaker without the patronage of their fae 'spirit' guide.

How would this idea work out?

 

[Aikuchi]

I see a division of how one would perceive the nature of spirits and fey and how they play in the SouthEastAsian mystic flavor.

The definition of what is "spirit" has to be cleat or at least a clear division amongst wild spirits, monsters and bound spirits in service of magic.

Many creatures of legend, myth and tales here in SEAsia has stories about spirits gaining power through pacts made with (or hunting down mortal sources) for more and more power to recapture the vitality of life or perhaps to punich them in avarice, envy or simply spite.

Ultimately, Sound of Azure should be bale to present a much needed clarification to the players in his game abotu the division between the Spirit: Fey, Incorporeal Undead, Elemental.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Wu Jen/Witchdoctor continued

Ok, we have a primary spirit that increases in ability and function as class levels go on.

To reflect power over other spirits, we have a number of options (and definitely not all at once!).

-Use feats alone. (this could also be used as an additional option to other ideas below)
This also allows other characters who want that kind of power to gain it, such a the barbarian character who wants powers greater than the Spirits of Rage, Fury, or Frenzy, or the Hexblade who wants more options than his Curse.

-Have a number of key levels (perhaps replacing the Spell Secret ability, or as an additional option) where the class can gain abilities that increase in power when the class gains more secrets (Like a Tattooed Monk, or the Psionic body Feat, or the Heritor feats in the Hordes of the Abyss book).

-Set abilities at particular levels, or with a few options, such as feats.

-Metamagic feats/ Sudden Metamagic granted by spirits

-Spell resistance against Spirit Magic and Spirit spell-like and supernatural abilities. Alternatively, a resistance bonus to saves like Druid Resist Nature's Lure.


Also there is the question of spell access. The Wu Jen spell list is fully open to the class(of course). The Sha'ir class gives access to the elemental Cleric domains, and Luck, Sun, Knowledge, Chaos and Law as potential spells known. Accessing divine spells takes much longer for the spirit to retrieve, however.
What Domains would be appropriate? The Sha'ir's Domain list is fixed(they don't gain the Domain abilities). Should this class have a choice in domains, as powers would be highly dependant on the spirit in question. Would it be too heavy handed to stick to a list that suits the class flavour instead (as the Sha'ir does)?
The class can already send its spirit to retrieve spells that are otherwise unknown (not on his spells known list) but identified with a spellcraft check. It just takes longer to retrieve

I'm sticking with the same hit die, base attack bonus, and base save as the normal Wu Jen. Ditto with Weapon proficiency. Skills.... diplomacy, spellcraft, knowledge skills are important, but what else?