Sell me on: Warhammer 40K RPG

[GhostShip Blue]

Lexicanum is a great resource for fluff and canon history. Parsing that to game mechanics is an immense undertaking that FFG has done with the help of GW and their writers. Of all the 40K stuff I own, Black Crusade is one that I do not. It does not interest me at all. So I can't comment on the quality of the info in it. Rogue Trader and Deathwatch are the lines I know best.

The mechanics are NOT terrible. The degrees of success mechanic is a pretty good implementation and does allow for some cinematic action. With an excellent roll (or a good set of bonuses) a Devastator with his heavy bolter being charged by a horde of 'Nids can cut them down like wheat before the scythe, which is exactly the image we all have of them. And if the 'Nids get a hold of him, he might live, mangled and ready for augmentation - which is also what the fluff tells us.The rules do work. The mechanics for leadership are sketchy - not horrifically so - it's a HARD thing to model. And Deathwatch approaches it with a greater degree of detail than does ASL. Granted, it's a gimmick for giving Astartes bonuses in combat, but it fits the fluff.

In the modern age of game design, what I think is missing is a way to let the players directly impact narrative. d20 systems don't do this at all and SW only approaches it with Bennies - so it's not a crucial component, but I do think that Dark Heresy game needs some kind of investigative fix. A Bennie system or Gumshoe's skill spends would really help.

 

[delericho]

In the modern age of game design, what I think is missing is a way to let the players directly impact narrative. d20 systems don't do this at all and SW only approaches it with Bennies - so it's not a crucial component, but I do think that Dark Heresy game needs some kind of investigative fix. A Bennie system or Gumshoe's skill spends would really help.

I'm very much of the Simulationist view when it comes to game design, so I don't feel that lack. For investigations, I found the Three Clue Rule to be absolutely invaluable - I treat in-game mysteries as, essentially, challenges for the players, and as such find that Bennies of "skill spends" aren't really needed (nor, particularly, wanted). YMMV of course.

 

[GhostShip Blue]

I would have thought the combat system in the 40K RPG was far too one sided for a truly stimulationist position. I suppose in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader it's more balanced than it is in Deathwatch, and I get that DW focuses on Astartes, but the system slopes HEAVILY towards the PCs in that game.

 

[delericho]

I would have thought the combat system in the 40K RPG was far too one sided for a truly stimulationist position. I suppose in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader it's more balanced than it is in Deathwatch, and I get that DW focuses on Astartes, but the system slopes HEAVILY towards the PCs in that game.

Yes, but that's a conceit of the game. The Chaos Space Marines in "Black Crusade" are incredibly powerful, what with their genetic modifications, power armour, and potent weapons. So when fighting against less powerful opponents, that's exactly how it should be playing out.

Simulationist != Realistic.

(And in "Black Crusade", those heretics who are not Chaos Marines are much more fragile in combat.)

 

[Kasbark]

I ended up buying Only War.

People seem to agree the combat is a bit more solid than Dark Heresy, and i can see i don't really have time to mod something like apocalypse world to WH40K at the moment.
I haven't received it yet, but i'm looking forward to getting it in the post in a few days!

 

[delericho]

Cool. Let us know how it goes!

 

[GhostShip Blue]

I know this comes late, but if anyone peruses this thread in the future: Three Sixteen.

Small, well thought out game that was not intended to handle 40K but it works BEAUTIFULLY for Deathwatch. I wish I could take credit for thinking of using Three Sixteen: Carnage Amongst the Stars as an engine for role playing Astartes, but I got it from a guy at rpol.net. I doubt it will work for other 40K properties, but it works brilliantly well for Astartes versus hordes of aliens.

 

[Nojo509]

For Rogue Trader, I adapted Paizo's Plot Twist Cards to 40K. Big fun and my players enjoyed throwing plot twists at me.

One problem some groups have with the mechanics is that it seems that the players fail all the time. 30% chance to hit is 70% chance for failure. As Dark Heresy starts at the lowest power level, this is a bigger issue in DH than in the other games.

For it to work as intended, players have to find all the advantages in range, aiming, equipment and so forth. It's not hard to turn a 30% chance of success into a 70%. In cramped starships point blank is easy to come by, and you never get beyond short range.

This works only if at least one player is a min/maxer who works with the other players to get them all the bonuses. My group was about half min/maxing 40k trivia freaks, so this was not an issue.

If your players like to control their own destiny, try Rogue Trader. If they like assigned missions, any of the others will do nicely.

We enjoyed the Rogue Trader starship combat, but sometime it went on too long. Perhaps add strange energy clouds that give bonus damage or some such combat speedups.

The RAW XP ran too slow for me, my metric was 3 sessions a level.

I ran a Dark Heresy campaign followed by a Rogue Trader campaign. My players loved both, but if I had to run DH again, I'd start at 3rd or 4th rank.

 

[Kasbark]

Thanks for the advice! I'm still waiting on my book, but it should arrive today.

Any advice on how to improve the experience for myself and players are appreciated - quirky rules i need to keep an eye out for or stuff like that. My players are far from optimizers, so i guess it might be an idea to start them off at a higher rank to make combat a bit faster (having a 70% miss chance makes for some boring combat i my experience)

 

[Nojo509]

Combat:

• The colorful Minion Rules (from Dark Heresy, Creatures Anathema) were great. Lots of crits and nasty deaths. Only War might have those baked in, but the jist is each minion gets 2 wounds. Any hit past armour and toughness does 1 wound, unless it does more than 10. If 10+ wounds, go directly to the Crit Table. Yay! Default to 8, unless 9 or 10 is the correct result. Messy deaths all around! And faster fights. Almost all my combats had minions.
• Flame weapons don't roll to hit. The targets roll to get out of the flame. Even untrained they are great on a bunch of low level NPCs.
• Grenades can do damage even if they miss, since they land somewhere.
• I'm not sure how Full Auto works in OW, since the +20 to hit bonus went away in Black Crusade. But in DH, RT, DW: +20 Full Auto +10 Short Range = +30. Point blank is +30, so +50 to hit. Plus you do a ton of damage.
• When not using Autofire, Aim gives +10 to +20.
• In melee, All Out attack gives +20 and target can't dodge or parry.
• Shotguns at point blank range are awesome on lightly armored targets.

Roleplaying:

• My players loved the 40k world, and many knew it better than me. Which was not a problem, as I got the vibe right. The vibe being everything is both terrible and bad ass. Just keep layering that in and your players will love it.
• Nothing is shiny. Everything is either corrupt or falling apart. Men haul giant ion cannons to their battle stations by pulling them on massive chains. Women work in dark, damp factories producing defective goods that no one wants. The masses toil, often for no reason. The nobles party, and indulge in heresy that unleash damnation over entire worlds.
• And in the muck are heroes. Often doomed, but a few of the NPCs are shining examples, giving their all for the Emperor. The players may be such heroes. These heroes hold the darkness at bay.
• The players get to be bad ass. Have NPCs grovel at their feet from time to time. Set up combats where the players get surprise and all the advantages every now and again. Let them push the button that detonates the tower of <insert bad thing here>.
• The players get to be royally hosed. Seeming allies set them up to take the fall. They are put in impossible situations by uncaring imperial orders. Mistakes are made, and the supplies get sent to the wrong planet. Traitors and uncaring bureaucrats are more dangerous than the supposed enemy.

To pick up on the 40k vibe, I read a few of the 40k fiction books. Many are as dreadful as is typical for game-based writing, but some are surprisingly good. I enjoyed the Eisenhorn books (I read one fat one with the entire trilogy in one big book).

Have fun!