selling a system change

[Shadeydm]

Anyone have experience convincing players used to the d20 Modern game to switch to the d20 CoC rules. It seems like a hard sell to me but I want to make the attempt. Your thoughts/opinions?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

To sell a system change, you need to do one of two things:

1. Say "I'm running this system, who's playing?," which works with a lot of players but will lose some.

2. Actually sell the change in terms of how it will benefit the players.

Now I'll be honest - I would never, ever make the switch you're talking about. While d20 Call of Cthulhu is an excellent book (it's a great resource for a Mythos campaign using any rulesset, provides d20 stats for key Mythos creatures, and incorporates an interesting alternate magic system), it's not all that great of a system. Especially compared to d20 Modern, which is a very, very good and customizable implementation of the d20 system.

So, the first thing you can do is try to sell me on the switch, as someone who is very much opposed to it. Explain how it will benefit me as though I were one of your players. It's a safe bet I'll be a tougher sell than them, because I'm one of the very few 100% 'system matters' people on enworld (as opposed to rpg.net, where they're fairly common).

"Selling someone" on something means making them want it: explaining how it will benefit them, even if it means creating a perceived need where none existed before.

So, how would YOU sell ME on switching to d20 CoC? What would I get from making the change?

Sample things an RPG can provide over another (you'll have to explain how d20 CoC provides one or more over d20 Modern, because I don't think it does) include:

Simulation of chosen source material
Interesting tactical choices
Ways to address a compelling theme through play
Speed of play
Realism
Power fantasy
In-play rewards for immersion in a character
Increased comaraderie at the table

Note that I'm not necessarily interested in all of those categories (in general or specifically for a game that crosses the d20 CoC/d20 Modern line), I'm just saying they are possibile approaches you could explore. Each individual player will have different buttons to push - one might be interested largely in tactics, another in power fantasy, a third in immersion. You'll be better equipped than anyone here to determine which buttons to push for each of your players.

The key thing is to make sure to push YOUR PLAYERS' buttons, not to project your own onto them. If you have a jones for realism and think d20 CoC does it better, but your players are a pack of tacticians and narrativists, you need to address them in those terms.

 

[Psion]

Anyone have experience convincing players used to the d20 Modern game to switch to the d20 CoC rules. It seems like a hard sell to me but I want to make the attempt. Your thoughts/opinions?

Other than I wouldn't go for it? I think D20 CoC chargen is pretty flimsy and would gladly use D20 Modern (perhaps toned down a little) in its place. It should be fairly simple to replace the D20 CoC chargen with D20 modern and use most of the remainder of the book as-is.

 

[Shadeydm]

Well I am hoping to run a d20 CoC/DG at some future date. The problem is I pretty much agree that d20 modern is better than CoC d20. But I love the CoC and DG materials and don't really have time or inclination to try and stat it all out in d20 Modern. Having finally gotten a copy of DG I must confess I am totally hooked on this book. It seems to me an ideal blend of CoC, Milennium, and the X-files. My biggest problem with the system is the whole character creation process being limited to defensive/offensive option. Compared to d20 modern with its strong, fast, tough, smart and dedicated classes plus advanced classes its just no contest to me. ARRG!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Well I am hoping to run a d20 CoC/DG at some future date. The problem is I pretty much agree that d20 modern is better than CoC d20. But I love the CoC and DG materials and don't really have time or inclination to try and stat it all out in d20 Modern. Having finally gotten a copy of DG I must confess I am totally hooked on this book. It seems to me an ideal blend of CoC, Milennium, and the X-files. My biggest problem with the system is the whole character creation process being limited to defensive/offensive option. Compared to d20 modern with its strong, fast, tough, smart and dedicated classes plus advanced classes its just no contest to me. ARRG!

d20 CoC is at least 95% compatible with d20 Modern, so my advice is... use d20 Modern with d20 CoC materials. Let the players create Modern characters, create any new NPCs you need with the Modern rules, and use published monsters and NPCs from the d20 CoC rules. Use d20 CoC for monsters, possibly spells, and flavor, and d20 Modern for the rest. I assume you have both the Modern and CoC books to be commenting on them thus, so there's no additional expense involved.

The magic systems in the core books are the only things that would cause a conflict and are grafted on in both cases; you can safely exchange the two without worry. Alternately, there are some very nice alternatives (EN Publishing's Elements of Magic and RPG Objects' Legends of Sorcery leap to mind) that could be fairly easily tweaked for appropriate Cthulhosity.

(BTW, is Delta Green d20 out? I haven't seen a copy yet. Anyway, I doubt it's much different from d20 CoC in terms of compatibility.)

The only other thing you would need to watch out for is the somewhat greater survivability of Modern characters. In general, d20 CoC characters are, on a per-level basis, equivalent to or slightly weaker than d20 Modern ordinaries, so keep that in mind if there's a reccomended level or CR involved.

If the Modern PCs are too tough for your Mythos campaign (keeping in mind that the Call of Cthulhu game does not necessarily reflect the number and quality of physical victories of characters in Lovecraft's fiction), consider slowing their advancement or capping their hp, but I don't even think that will prove too much of a problem.

 

[Shadeydm]

Yes it's out but it was a pain to find a copy at a brick and mortar store.

I will have to look closer, for some reason I thought d20 Modern characters were much tougher than the CoC ones.

 

[Psion]

I will have to look closer, for some reason I thought d20 Modern characters were much tougher than the CoC ones.

That's a reasonable assessment. Skill points are similar, but D20 Modern characters get a feat or talent per level.

As far as massive damage threshold goes, you can use the same MDT rule in D20 Modern as in D20 CoC. It's even right there as an option in the d20 modern book.

You can crank it down a notch further by having the PCs play ordinaries and taking out action points.

Or, you can just make the cultists and Mythos creatures tougher.

 

[SWBaxter]

I will have to look closer, for some reason I thought d20 Modern characters were much tougher than the CoC ones.

They are, but that's not really a game breaker. In general in CoC, if you're supposed to run from something, it's so much more powerful than the PCs that even a major boost in PC toughness won't help. Stuff they're supposed to fight, like cultists or Deep Ones, can be made more deadly by upping the numbers or tweaking d20 Modern's lethality rather than re-statting the bad guys.

 

[Flynn]

There's some CoC/D20 Modern goodness at the following site as well:
http://members.aol.com/CountryGrrlHere/cthulhumod.html

Hope This Helps,
Flynn

 

[Shadeydm]

Who is more likley to run from a strage unearthly monstrosity a defensive option 4 or a fast hero 3/gunslinger 1? Herein lies my problem (real or imagined) it just seems that tougher characters will tend towards a more dnd philosophy of kill it before it kills us rather than run before it kills us.