D&D 5E Seriously, why no setting support?

[Parmandur]

I hope you're right, but I'm not as optimistic as you. I'm expecting the mechanical expansion to be bundled with an adventure or more Realms lore, along the lines of Volo's Guide. I think the comments about supporting the old settings are genuine, but I think it's just a low priority for them. Something more likely another year or two further along their publishing schedule.

Psionics and subclasses are all I think we should expect. I think that idea of more races seems unlikely given we just got a race book and they could have been included there. I think expecting races and other setting specific options is a bit of a leap, although by no means an impossibility.

Honestly, I hope I'm wrong and what we get is almost exactly what you've described. We'll see.

We'll see; [MENTION=697]mearls[/MENTION] said at the Gameholecon panel that more Race options over the long term than Class is likely, given what people want; this is what they said about what the feedback on the survey when they first mentioned the expansion:

"In our last survey, we asked you which areas of D&D you thought needed expansion, and solicited feedback for the latest revision of the mystic character class and new rules for psionics.

"In terms of overall content, feats were far and away the most requested new element. Over 70 percent of you want more feats for your game. Feats also had the least opposition to their expansion. Because we haven’t released any products focused on new feats since the launch of the game, we know there’s definitely some pent-up demand for them. But feats are perhaps the thorniest element to design for D&D, as they tend to span multiple abilities and can trigger weird interactions that the game’s core design can’t always account for. As a result, we’ll be taking things slowly as we explore options and starting points for new feat development.

"A desire for more character classes came next behind feats, with spells and races clustered not far behind that. We asked in detail about classes, with the ranger easily leading the pack. The sorcerer and druid were the next most popular choices, followed by the fighter and warlock. The rest of the classes were mostly clustered together, with the exception of the wizard and cleric. Both those classes received much less support for new options, making me suspect that most players would rather see additional spells for those classes."

 

[hawkeyefan]

Considering what you said, I DO hope that they add new mechanics, not just new subclasses and races again. SCAG already had those, and while I like the Sword Coast and Faerun informations, I want some new mechanics on the book. This new big crunch book would be better for all if it wasn't attached to an adventure. Besides, adventures are good enough for introducing races (EE Companion), they could do the same for classes and subclasses.

I don't think it will be an adventure for sure, just that there will be other material of some sort. Look at Volo's Guide...lots of expansion on certain core monsters, including Laura and ecology and all kinds of fluff, packaged alongside tons of monster stat blocks. The book seems to be aimed at a wide audience, of bother players and DMs. And the recent comments they've made about not wanting to do a book that's been done before, and trying something a bit different, that makes me think it won't simply be a PHB2 or Unearthed Arcana type of book. Just speculation on my part...I would actually dig it if they put setting info into the book. "The Worlds of D&D" kind of thing.

We'll see; @mearls said at the Gameholecon panel that more Race options over the long term than Class is likely, given what people want; this is what they said about what the feedback on the survey when they first mentioned the expansion:

"In our last survey, we asked you which areas of D&D you thought needed expansion, and solicited feedback for the latest revision of the mystic character class and new rules for psionics.

"In terms of overall content, feats were far and away the most requested new element. Over 70 percent of you want more feats for your game. Feats also had the least opposition to their expansion. Because we haven’t released any products focused on new feats since the launch of the game, we know there’s definitely some pent-up demand for them. But feats are perhaps the thorniest element to design for D&D, as they tend to span multiple abilities and can trigger weird interactions that the game’s core design can’t always account for. As a result, we’ll be taking things slowly as we explore options and starting points for new feat development.

"A desire for more character classes came next behind feats, with spells and races clustered not far behind that. We asked in detail about classes, with the ranger easily leading the pack. The sorcerer and druid were the next most popular choices, followed by the fighter and warlock. The rest of the classes were mostly clustered together, with the exception of the wizard and cleric. Both those classes received much less support for new options, making me suspect that most players would rather see additional spells for those classes."

I haven't had time yet to listen to the whole panel, but I plan on it at some point. I really hope they remain conservative with feats. I think they'll avoid adding lots of classes by using sub-classes in most cases.

Nothing in the quoted bit above really touches upon other settings, though. Did they touch upon that at all at the panel?

 

[delericho]

You win the thread good Sir!

Nah, there was no victory to be had here.
[MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] was right - life's too short.

(And to [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION], if you see this: I apologise. Some of my language, and especially that last post, was intemperate.)

 

[CapnZapp]

I really like the idea of tossing a bunch of different setting-specific elements into one big pot and putting it out as a big book of crunch.

Cram artificers and factions and psionics and thri-kreen and warforged and bariaur and mix it up with stuff like New Rangers and other assorted class and race options...yeah, sounds neat.

Yep. And since, as is noted up-thread, most people calling for setting support already own the appropriate fluff books, all that's really needed is mechanical updated. A single big book like that would solve a lot of issues very efficiently.

I think it's clear they will work very hard to make every book attractive to as many customers as possible, to an extent we did not see in previous editions.

The "book for this specialized thing" idea is dead.

If they ever publish books for 5% settings, I bet it will be chalked up as a loss-leader, much like adventures.

But while you need adventures, I'm not sure they aren't still hoping they can get away with not actually having to support settings.

I mean, talking about it is cheap. Providing online encouragement is cheap. Breadcrumbs like Krynn minotaurs. Only committing to a hardcover is not cheap - instead it's a business risk.

I bet they would love if people just picked up previous edition setting info, and then bought their new adventure and campaign books and made their "Realms into Greyhawk/Cerilia/Nerath" translations themselves.

 

[CapnZapp]

Slight quibble- 5e has support for all the canonical D&D settings. You can play 5e in any prior setting.

What many people are stating is that they would like to see more official WoTC product for their preferred setting.

*Ahem* That is what people mean when they say 5e doesn't support their setting...

Just the fact 5E doesn't go out of its way of being incompatible with your favorite setting does not mean it "supports" it. That would set an incredibly low threshold, and utterly dilute the notion.

So don't do that

 

[CapnZapp]

It's annoying they haven't updated the Eberron article, done other worlds, or revised other articles like the Battlesystem rules. I imagine updating the ranger and getting psionics out the door is higher priority.

I think it's useful to not lose sight of what separates the priorities of this edition, compared to... pretty much every prior one.

Updating a ranger or psionics has a large audience. Do other worlds has not.

So it's not just a matter of "higher priority" - at least to me, that implies that given enough time they will eventually get to the bottom of that list. And that might just prove to be misleading.

We also need to ask ourselves will they ever do stuff again that likely won't sell? Is "other worlds" really on the list at all?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Parmandur]

I don't think it will be an adventure for sure, just that there will be other material of some sort. Look at Volo's Guide...lots of expansion on certain core monsters, including Laura and ecology and all kinds of fluff, packaged alongside tons of monster stat blocks. The book seems to be aimed at a wide audience, of bother players and DMs. And the recent comments they've made about not wanting to do a book that's been done before, and trying something a bit different, that makes me think it won't simply be a PHB2 or Unearthed Arcana type of book. Just speculation on my part...I would actually dig it if they put setting info into the book. "The Worlds of D&D" kind of thing.



I haven't had time yet to listen to the whole panel, but I plan on it at some point. I really hope they remain conservative with feats. I think they'll avoid adding lots of classes by using sub-classes in most cases.

Nothing in the quoted bit above really touches upon other settings, though. Did they touch upon that at all at the panel?

Yup, they talked about the default setting for 5E, the multiverse, embracing all previous settings simultaneously, and how they have strived to bring them all in through the entire product line (tons of Greyhawk references in Volos, all over the core books, etc.). They were pretty animated about it, actually; while I doubt they will do an old school campaign guide anytime soon, they clearly signaled that they are working to provide some support.

 

[Parmandur]

I think it's clear they will work very hard to make every book attractive to as many customers as possible, to an extent we did not see in previous editions.



The "book for this specialized thing" idea is dead.



If they ever publish books for 5% settings, I bet it will be chalked up as a loss-leader, much like adventures.



But while you need adventures, I'm not sure they aren't still hoping they can get away with not actually having to support settings.



I mean, talking about it is cheap. Providing online encouragement is cheap. Breadcrumbs like Krynn minotaurs. Only committing to a hardcover is not cheap - instead it's a business risk.



I bet they would love if people just picked up previous edition setting info, and then bought their new adventure and campaign books and made their "Realms into Greyhawk/Cerilia/Nerath" translations themselves.

They have stated their goal with all 5E books is 100,000 copies sold, minimum: they are not doing loss leaders (aside from Basic rules...) in this edition.

While a detailed setting book for 5% of players would be unwise, 5% of a big book dedicated to giving those 5% what they need, and increasing options for the home brew majority...that can add up, if the Dark Sun players, the Eberron players, the Planescape players and so on all have to buy the book while the home brewers go gaga over the options...it just might work.

 

[CapnZapp]

They have stated their goal with all 5E books is 100,000 copies sold, minimum: they are not doing loss leaders (aside from Basic rules...) in this edition.

In discussing "loss leaders" I think it useful to restrict ourselves to printed products (even though Basic certainly cost more than nothing to put together).

I can certainly see the first few adventure campaigns making a profit, but if WotC has managed to find a way to actually make money off of things like Storm King's Thunder (instead of merely making sure a prospective PHB customer sees plenty of support material on the shelf), congratulations!

While a detailed setting book for 5% of players would be unwise, 5% of a big book dedicated to giving those 5% what they need, and increasing options for the home brew majority...that can add up, if the Dark Sun players, the Eberron players, the Planescape players and so on all have to buy the book while the home brewers go gaga over the options...it just might work.

It will be interesting indeed to see if they ever take this tack. Smushing together support for several campaign worlds in a single book, that is. Personally I don't think it'll work, but they certainly have to try something.

(As I said previously, if they thought they could get away with not printing any world support books, leaving that to perhaps the DMs Guild, I believe they wouldn't and would. Look at SCAG - to me it's obvious how they have concluded a campaign book don't sell enough by itself - even for FR - and so they added player material. Sure SCAG ended up being too light and sparse for me on both DM and PC fronts, but if they're happy with sales, I guess I'll have to get used to this new, much lower, amount of content per dollar)