Setting Dificulties in FAE (FATE Accelerated)

[RobShanti]

My first experience with FAE was *after* I had already played and become comfortable with the rules of Fate Core, and that may have shaped the way I interpreted the FAE rules. I then took a long hiatus from gaming, after which the rules of FATE/FAE became less crisp in my mind. When I returned to gaming, I picked up with FAE, and that challenged some assumptions I had about the rules set. So I'm wondering what your folks interpretations are of some things.

I'm running a Star Wars FAE game.

These guys are running a Star Wars FAE game:

[video=youtube;foK_E4G7aX4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foK_E4G7aX4[/video]

I gave their video a viewing, and it raised some specific questions for me about setting Difficulties for rolls:

QUESTION #1: MOOK STRESS BOXES (this is essentially a Difficulty rating issue)

In FAE, do mook stress boxes work the same as PC stress boxes?

If I build a PC with a 1, a 2 and a 3 stress box, he can effectively soak six shifts of damage, and the seventh will take him out (not considering the absorbent effects of the Consequences track). If I build a mook with two stress boxes (like the "Sky Shark" on page 38 of the FAE rulebook), is that mook able to soak THREE shifts of stress, the fourth shift then taking out the mook (the way the first two boxes of PC's stress track can do), or do those two mook stress boxes only soak TWO shifts of stress, the third shift taking out the mook?

I note that In FATE Core, the stress boxes for mooks (in FATE Core, they're called "Nameless NPCs") do work differently than the stress boxes for PCs, as is demonstrated on pages 214-215 of the FATE Core rulebook. But does that mechanic carry over to FAE? I sometimes think of FAE as "FATE Core with most of the dials dialed down to zero," and if I think of it that way, then I would work stress for FAE mooks differently than stress for FAE PCs, just like stress for FATE Core Nameless NPCs works differently than stress for FATE Core PCs.

What do you do?

QUESTION #2: ODD VS. EVEN DIFFICULTIES

In my game, one of my PCs wanted to Create an Advantage, and asked, what's the Difficulty for this? I hesitated, because my hiatus in gaming had made the answer less crisp in my mind, and in that pause, one of the other players answered, "Well, it only has to be a positive result, so a 1 should be the Difficulty." It wasn't much of an issue, so I went with that. And we continued to go with that every time someone wanted to Create an Advantage. But after the game was over, and I had a moment to myself, I looked up the answer in the FAE rulebook. I saw on page 37 that Difficulties for any of the actions should be 0 if it's easy, but if you can think of at least one reason why the PC might fail, set the Difficulty at 2. For even harder Actions, set it at 4 or as "high as makes sense."

Applying that literally ("Rules As Written," as we gamers often say), Difficulties should be set at multiples of two until you reach something harder than Difficulty 4, in which case you can set it at 5 or 7 or 9. One exception seems to be where a player chooses a less than fitting Approach to accomplish the action, in which case the GM can up the Difficulty by 1 or 2, in which case we could conceivably get a DC of 1 or 3 or some other odd number (starting Difficulty of 0, ill-fitting Approach gives +1; or starting Difficulty of 2, ill-fitting Approach gives +1; etc.).

So, "RAW," I really should have been using a Difficulty of 2, rather than 1, for our default Create Advantage
Difficulty.

Is that how you play it?

QUESTION #3: EXCLUSIVE ADVANTAGES

I notice at the 1:25 mark of the YouTube video I mentioned above, one of the PCs succeeds in Creating an Advantage -- two Advantages, in fact -- and they discuss whether that player should attach one or both of those Advantages to a particular ally, or whether he should give one Advantage to one ally, and the other Advantage to a separate ally. This is not how I do it.

The way I run it, when a player Creates an Advantage, that Advantage "floats" (I just made that term up)...in other words, the player doesn't "attach" that advantage to ally #1, but rather any of his allies can use that advantage. In fact, it has never come up in any of my games where someone wanted to "attach" an Advantage exclusively to a particular person.

I'm not saying that *if* it came up, I would forbid "attaching" an Advantage "exclusively"...in fact, I would probably allow it if it made sense, but I'm hard pressed to think of an instance where it would make sense.

For instance, a sniper team of PCs are targeting an enemy officer who has cover. One PC Creates the Advantage "Exposed" on the officer by shooting and destroying the crate he's hiding behind. "Exposed" is something any ally (or anyone at all, in fact, ally or otherwise) could take advantage of now.

Alternately, I suppose the PC could instead somehow Create the Advantage exclusively for his ally -- let's call the ally TK-421 -- by calling the Advantage "In TK-421's sights" by, say, tinkering with the scope on TK-421's sniper rifle. But if the successful Create Advantage roll comes first, and then you're trying to narrate what that Advantage is, I don't see why one would want to go with the more limiting option...unless it's really critical to the character concept of the PC who Created the Advantage...say, because he's an unarmed techie who would sooner tinker with his ally's scope than arm himself and shoot away a crate.

How do you do it?

QUESTION #4: HOW ZONES AFFECT DIFFICULTY RATINGS

I notice that at the 1:30 mark on the video I mentioned above, the GM increases a sniper's Difficulty "by one for each zone" of distance. I don't see anything in the Rules as Written in the FAE rulebook that say this. If anything, page 37 of the FAE rulebook would imply that the Difficulty should be increased by TWO for each zone, since each zone is "one reason" why the shot might fail.

Well, those are enough questions for the moment. And I notice that many of them -- perhaps even all four of them -- have to do with setting Difficulties. And I understand that setting Difficulties is more of an art than a science, but even artists have techniques, if not outright rules, that guide them in creating art. So I'm curious to hear how you GMs practice your art in these respects.

Gratefully,
Rob P.

 

[Umbran]

QUESTION #1: MOOK STRESS BOXES (this is essentially a Difficulty rating issue)

In FAE, do mook stress boxes work the same as PC stress boxes?

Yes. Mooks have zero, one, or two stress boxes, and can't take consequences. If you fill their stress boxes, the next hit takes them out. If you overflow their stress boxes, they are taken out (so, one hit for four will just flatten a mook on that hit).

If I build a PC with a 1, a 2 and a 3 stress box, he can effectively soak six shifts of damage, and the seventh will take him out (not considering the absorbent effects of the Consequences track).

Small correction. The PC can take *at most* six shifts of damage. But, he may take as little as three. Remember that if that first box is filled, and he takes another hit for one, that second hit will roll up to the second box. If he takes a third hit for one, that rolls up to the third box. Then, it is take consequences, or get taken out.

If I build a mook with two stress boxes (like the "Sky Shark" on page 38 of the FAE rulebook), is that mook able to soak THREE shifts of stress, the fourth shift then taking out the mook (the way the first two boxes of PC's stress track can do), or do those two mook stress boxes only soak TWO shifts of stress, the third shift taking out the mook?

No, just like on characters: the first stress box is worth one. The second is worth two. So, he can take at most three stress and keep operating. But two hits for one will also fill his stress boxes. Once the boxes are filled, the next hit will take him down.

I note that In FATE Core, the stress boxes for mooks (in FATE Core, they're called "Nameless NPCs") do work differently than the stress boxes for PCs, as is demonstrated on pages 214-215 of the FATE Core rulebook.

I don't have the Fate Core rulebook handy, but the online SRD does not say the stress boxes are different. And my understanding of most other FATE-based games suggests that no, stress boxes are the same for PCs and NPCs. Nameless NPCs just have fewer boxes, and cannot take consequences.

QUESTION #2: ODD VS. EVEN DIFFICULTIES

In my game, one of my PCs wanted to Create an Advantage, and asked, what's the Difficulty for this? I hesitated, because my hiatus in gaming had made the answer less crisp in my mind, and in that pause, one of the other players answered, "Well, it only has to be a positive result, so a 1 should be the Difficulty."

Creating an advantage can be opposed. So, no, the target is not necessarily a flat 1. The GM can set the target on the action, like for any other action.

Applying that literally ("Rules As Written," as we gamers often say), Difficulties should be set at multiples of two...

That's merely suggestion. It is not a hard rule.

...until you reach something harder than Difficulty 4, in which case you can set it at 5 or 7 or 9. One exception seems to be where a player chooses a less than fitting Approach to accomplish the action, in which case the GM can up the Difficulty by 1 or 2, in which case we could conceivably get a DC of 1 or 3 or some other odd number (starting Difficulty of 0, ill-fitting Approach gives +1; or starting Difficulty of 2, ill-fitting Approach gives +1; etc.).

The canonical example is that you cannot Forcefully creep through a dark room to not alert guards. The "ill-fitting approach" thing from page 37 of FAE is an optional rule.

Rather than allow the action with that approach at a higher target, I've more often seen GMs just ask for a different Approach from the player. Mathematically, these work out to be the same - add a modifier to the target, or use an approach with a lower modifier, who cares? The difference is in seeming less arbitrary as a GM - when you ask them to use a different approach, you are explaining your reasoning about how the action doesn't make sense. You are now training the players to do the sensible thing in the first place, rather than patching over when they don't do so.

The way I run it, when a player Creates an Advantage, that Advantage "floats" (I just made that term up)...in other words, the player doesn't "attach" that advantage to ally #1, but rather any of his allies can use that advantage. In fact, it has never come up in any of my games where someone wanted to "attach" an Advantage exclusively to a particular person.

The Advantage itself does not float around. The Advantage is merely an aspect. Once it is created, anyone (even the target) can use it if they spend a Fate point.

If you had succeeded, or succeeded with style, you have one or two free uses of the advantage. The FAE book is a touch vague on this, so technically you can go either way. But in FATE Core, the player who created the advantage decides how the free uses get distributed, and that's how I normally play it. He or she can keep them for themselves, hand them to specific players, or open them up to whoever in the group wants to use them. Many groups by habit open them up to whoever wants them, but that's not required.

QUESTION #4: HOW ZONES AFFECT DIFFICULTY RATINGS

I notice that at the 1:30 mark on the video I mentioned above, the GM increases a sniper's Difficulty "by one for each zone" of distance. I don't see anything in the Rules as Written in the FAE rulebook that say this. If anything, page 37 of the FAE rulebook would imply that the Difficulty should be increased by TWO for each zone, since each zone is "one reason" why the shot might fail.

Note that the Setting Difficulties section on page 37 has, "Rules of Thumb," not, "Rules Hard and Fast" The GM is free to set the difficulty as they see fit, and is not technically restricted to using only multiples of +/- 2.

For example, if it was in a different zone, but the line of sight was very clear, I can see giving a +1, and if there is a minor obstacle between zones, making it a +2.

 

[RobShanti]

Wow, Umbran! Thank you for your very thoughtful and detailed response! I really appreciate your input.

That said, I do agree with some stuff you said, and disagree with other stuff. I would like to offer a response to your response...

Yes. Mooks have zero, one, or two stress boxes, and can't take consequences. If you fill their stress boxes, the next hit takes them out. If you overflow their stress boxes, they are taken out (so, one hit for four will just flatten a mook on that hit).

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Where I think I disagree is with what you said next...*how* we overflow a Mook's stress box...

No, just like on [player] characters: the first stress box [on a mook] is worth one. The second is worth two. So, [mooks] can take at most three stress and keep operating. But two hits for one will also fill his stress boxes. Once the boxes are filled, the next hit will take him down.

While I personally would like to agree with you on this, as it gives mooks a bit more bite, I can't find anything in the FAE rulebook that indicates this. And if we assume that FAE is just "FATE with many of the settings dialed down to zero" (i.e., fill in the vague rules of FAE with the information in the FATE Core Rulebook), page 215 of the FATE Core Rulebook explicitly says that a "Good" Nameless NPC with "[t]wo stress boxes" is taken out by "a three shift hit." If we treated the stress boxes of Nameless NPCs in FATE Core the same as we treat the stress track of a FATE Core PC, that would read "a *four* shift hit is enough to take them out."

Small correction. The [FAE] PC can take *at most* six shifts of damage. But, he may take as little as three. Remember that if that first box is filled, and he takes another hit for one, that second hit will roll up to the second box. If he takes a third hit for one, that rolls up to the third box. Then, it is take consequences, or get taken out.

Again, I respectfully disagree. I can't find anything in the FAE rulebook to talk about "rolling up" stress. That is a FATE Core concept, but I don't see that it ported over into FAE. Imagine someone who never bought the FATE Core rulebook or never played FATE Core, and instead, his first Evil Hat product was the FAE rulebook. Where would he learn that "rolling up" concept? So, taking FAE as its own entity, I don't think we "roll up" stress like that.

Am I missing something? At the risk of sounding like an annoying rules lawyer, can you cite your source on that in the FAE (FATE Accelerated) rulebook?

I don't have the Fate Core rulebook handy, but the online SRD does not say the stress boxes are different. And my understanding of most other FATE-based games suggests that no, stress boxes are the same for PCs and NPCs. Nameless NPCs just have fewer boxes, and cannot take consequences.

I'm not sure if the SRD has this in it, but I got the notion that FATE Core stress is treated differently for Nameless NPCs than it is for PCs from that line on page 215 of the FATE Core Rulebook that explicitly says that a "Good" Nameless NPC with "[t]wo stress boxes" is taken out by "a three shift hit." Again, if we treated the stress boxes of Nameless NPCs in FATE Core the same as we treat the stress track of a FATE Core PC, that would read "a *four* shift hit is enough to take them out."

Creating an advantage can be opposed. So, no, the target is not necessarily a flat 1.

That is an excellent point, and I wasn't thinking in terms of opposed Create Adv. rolls.

Note that the Setting Difficulties section on page 37 has, "Rules of Thumb," not, "Rules Hard and Fast" The GM is free to set the difficulty as they see fit, and is not technically restricted to using only multiples of +/- 2.

Excellent catch, Umbran! Take THAT, rules lawyers! That's what I get for not reading the heading of the text.

The Advantage itself does not float around. The Advantage is merely an aspect. Once it is created, anyone (even the target) can use it if they spend a Fate point.

Well, yes, you're right. Perhaps "floating" isn't a good term because it could be misinterpreted to mean it "floats" with respect to its *target*. That's not what I meant. The Advantage definitely is an Aspect that is attached to a specific *target*. I merely meant that under normal circumstances, anyone can tag that Aspect. But as you say, I would let a player limit who can tag the Aspect if he really wanted to do so, or if it otherwise served the story.

 

[Umbran]

While I personally would like to agree with you on this, as it gives mooks a bit more bite, I can't find anything in the FAE rulebook that indicates this. And if we assume that FAE is just "FATE with many of the settings dialed down to zero" (i.e., fill in the vague rules of FAE with the information in the FATE Core Rulebook), page 215 of the FATE Core Rulebook explicitly says that a "Good" Nameless NPC with "[t]wo stress boxes" is taken out by "a three shift hit." If we treated the stress boxes of Nameless NPCs in FATE Core the same as we treat the stress track of a FATE Core PC, that would read "a *four* shift hit is enough to take them out."

Oh, I see what yoru misunderstanding is. Here's the thing to remember. When you take a hit, you get to check *ONE* box. If you don't have a single box capable of taking all the stress, and you don't have Consequences, you are Taken Out.

Your Mook has two Stress boxes. The first box will absorb one stress. The second box will absorb two stress. So, what does he do if he takes three stress in one hit? He doesn't check both boxes! He would have to check the third box, but he doesn't have a third box! So, that one hit takes him down.

Similarly, say your Mook as two stress boxes. First round, he takes a hit for one stress. He checks his first stress box. Second round, he takes a hit for one stress. His first box is checked, so it rolls up and he checks his second box. Third round, he takes yet another hit for one stress. He has no more empty boxes. The stress rolls up to the third box he does not have, and he's taken out.

Well, yes, you're right. Perhaps "floating" isn't a good term because it could be misinterpreted to mean it "floats" with respect to its *target*. That's not what I meant.

Oh, I know. But, since there are potentially other readers, I wanted to be specific and correct for their sake.

I merely meant that under normal circumstances, anyone can tag that Aspect. But as you say, I would let a player limit who can tag the Aspect if he really wanted to do so, or if it otherwise served the story.

Yah. I was being careful with terminology. Anyone can tag the Aspect, if they spend their own Fate Point. The creator doesn't get a say if you want to spend your own point. The free tags that come with creating the Aspect are normally at the creator's discretion.

 

[RobShanti]

Oh, I see what yoru misunderstanding is. Here's the thing to remember. When you take a hit, you get to check *ONE* box. If you don't have a single box capable of taking all the stress, and you don't have Consequences, you are Taken Out.

Your Mook has two Stress boxes. The first box will absorb one stress. The second box will absorb two stress. So, what does he do if he takes three stress in one hit? He doesn't check both boxes! He would have to check the third box, but he doesn't have a third box! So, that one hit takes him down.

Similarly, say your Mook as two stress boxes. First round, he takes a hit for one stress. He checks his first stress box. Second round, he takes a hit for one stress. His first box is checked, so it rolls up and he checks his second box. Third round, he takes yet another hit for one stress. He has no more empty boxes. The stress rolls up to the third box he does not have, and he's taken out.

That makes perfect sense. And I think that's a perfectly fair interpretation of the Stress rules. It certainly *works* in FAE, and it certainly is supported by the FATE Core rulebook.

For the next two paragraphs of this post, however, I'm going to channel this annoying über-nerd for purposes of playing devil's advocate:



If you had never bought, read or played FATE Core, you would NEVER divine that from the FAE rulebook. Nowhere in the FAE rulebook does the text describe "rolling up." That's a FATE Core concept and is not transcribed anywhere in the FAE rulebook.

As written, the FAE rulebook is vague as to how Mook stress works, as to whether it works the same or differently as FAE PCs, and only by applying the text of the Fate Core rules can we come to your conclusion, Umbran. It's definitely as good an interpretation as any, and gives Mooks more bite than the other interpretation, but the FAE rulebook definitely does not answer this question as far as I can tell. [/ÜBER]

That said, since the FAE rulebook is silent as to whether FAE Mook Stress is applied differently than FAE PC stress, I suppose there is no reason to question whether they are applied differently.

Hence, I suppose you're right, Umbran, and our über-nerd devil's advocate pictured above is wrong. I appreciate your input and accept your interpretation. You've convinced me.

 

[Umbran]

If you had never bought, read or played FATE Core, you would NEVER divine that from the FAE rulebook. Nowhere in the FAE rulebook does the text describe "rolling up." That's a FATE Core concept and is not transcribed anywhere in the FAE rulebook.

It is not explicitly stated, but it is actually pretty much required by the logic. Check out page 23 of the FAE. They say:

1) First box can absorb 1, second box can absorb two, third box can absorb three, etc.
2) You can only check *one* box for a given hit, and you cannot check a box that is already checked.
3) You can check a box and also take one or more consequences on a given hit.
4) If you cannot absorb the stress by checking a box and/or taking consequences, then you are Taken Out.

By (2), boxes are clearly either checked, or not checked. There is no "check off part of a box".

If you take N stress, and your N box is full, you certainly cannot check off your N-1 box without also taking a consequence, as the N-1 box cannot absorb N stress.

This leaves the only question being, can the N+1 box be used to absorb N stress, if your N box is already checked. While I can see how having it stated explicitly that you can would be nice, it seems adequately covered by (1).

And that, really, is all rolling up is.

That said, since the FAE rulebook is silent as to whether FAE Mook Stress is applied differently than FAE PC stress, I suppose there is no reason to question whether they are applied differently.

They define the Stress mechanic on page 23, and Bad Guys on page 38, using the terminology from the earlier page. Unless they *give* a new definition, the old one still holds. Beyond there being no reason to question - in a work that is clearly written for brevity. Repeating what should be obvious is about the opposite of what you should expect form the FAE authors.

 

[RobShanti]

That makes sense on both counts.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The FAE book is a touch vague on this, so technically you can go either way. But in FATE Core, the player who created the advantage decides how the free uses get distributed, and that's how I normally play it. He or she can keep them for themselves, hand them to specific players, or open them up to whoever in the group wants to use them. Many groups by habit open them up to whoever wants them, but that's not required.

Thanks for the insight! My group always opens them up to whoever wants to (and can) use them. We'll probably stick with that but it's good to know the intended rule.

 

[Red Dice Diaries]

In terms of setting the difficulties for Create Advantage actions, I generally find in most games that the advantage is being created to increase the chances of success at a conflict or contest against an NPC, so I normally make it an opposed roll to successfully perform the action.