Setting Sun: Fluff vs. Crunch?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I noticed something I hadn't given much thought to as I ran an adventure last night, but is really bothering me now.

One of the players is a Half-Giant (and thus has powerful build) that uses a Whip-dagger and specializes in Setting Sun throws. Obviously, he generally chooses the "strength option," especially since he left his dexterity at 6. He did VERY well, counter charging, tripping, and throwing successfully almost every attempt. Which is fine, since at AC 13, he's also a giant walking punching bag for damage.

My issue was the realization that he was getting far more benefit out of the maneuvers than the discipline's "target" practictioner, a smallish dex-based fighter. I don't mind if the benefits were equal even, but the checks are just plain easier to make for larger, strong users. I checked Mighty Throw, which most of the throw maneuvers reference, just to fully digest the synergy at work. You generally get a static +4 bonus, can choose str or dex, and since it's a trip check, you are implicitly allowed size bonus. Not only is this not true in reverse for a dexterity throw (+4 for each size smaller than medium), I'm starting to think, per RAW, a small swordsage would actually suffer a -4 penalty on any throw attempt!

Am I alone in finding this mildly revolting and completely contradictory to the flavor text of...just about everything about the discipline? If not, what should be done about it? Add in a "reverse" size bonus for dex-throws? That would just screw over medium sized characters more, though. Remove size bonuses from strength throws (and obviously from dex ones)? I'm not sure. Doesn't make logical sense you're making a trip check but not using size, and it's always difficult to impose a nerf on a character after the game's started. Especially since a) I helped him build this character and b) because of of role-playing, he's chosen to make some sub-par decisions in the build to better fit his vision (like the aforementioned crud AC) and as a result, on the whole, his character isn't overpowered.

But still, I'd like to fix how the system works to better fit the flavor text, even if I have to dance around not making it affect his character.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I checked Mighty Throw, which most of the throw maneuvers reference, just to fully digest the synergy at work. You generally get a static +4 bonus, can choose str or dex, and since it's a trip check, you are implicitly allowed size bonus. Not only is this not true in reverse for a dexterity throw (+4 for each size smaller than medium), I'm starting to think, per RAW, a small swordsage would actually suffer a -4 penalty on any throw attempt!

Hmm, guess he wouldget stanard penalty, but the +4 bonus cancels out penalty.


But still, I'd like to fix how the system works to better fit the flavor text, even if I have to dance around not making it affect his character.[/quote]
You could make all Manuvers not use Size if you want.
Say manuvers don't explicitly state it so I'm not using size.

Only drawback is than tripping larger creatures wouldn't sized based but Str based (than again, that seems okay to me). So your 1/2 Giant could possibly trip a Gargantuan creature (depending on Str).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Hmm, that brings up an interesting point. Till now, I assumed you could use Setting Sun throws on anything you won the check against, but they ARE trip checks. Should you be able to? If not, this only makes things worse for the small swordsages out there, and kinda makes the story behind the setting sun's special weapon (kid stuck on an island fending off giants) "legally" impossible to replicate with the throw maneuvers. I'd be inclined to ignore size limits on throws, but then again I think the size limits on special combat maneuvers are dumb to begin with (except for grapple), and am fully amenable towards ignoring them to begin with. If you're a medium human and can actually overcome the huge giant's +8 size and massive str bonus to bull rush him, why the hell can't you? Clearly, your ability to shove people is superhuman.

 

[Shin Okada]

If I were you, I don't care much about the original fluff and just let the half-giant PC play by RAW. Or rather, I will CHANGE THE FLUFF. Fluff is just fluff after all. You and your player can just call it, say, Sitting Mountain and in your campaign it was created by some half-giant Swordsage.

 

[emoplato]

I noticed something I hadn't given much thought to as I ran an adventure last night, but is really bothering me now.

One of the players is a Half-Giant (and thus has powerful build) that uses a Whip-dagger and specializes in Setting Sun throws. Obviously, he generally chooses the "strength option," especially since he left his dexterity at 6. He did VERY well, counter charging, tripping, and throwing successfully almost every attempt. Which is fine, since at AC 13, he's also a giant walking punching bag for damage.

My issue was the realization that he was getting far more benefit out of the maneuvers than the discipline's "target" practictioner, a smallish dex-based fighter. I don't mind if the benefits were equal even, but the checks are just plain easier to make for larger, strong users. I checked Mighty Throw, which most of the throw maneuvers reference, just to fully digest the synergy at work. You generally get a static +4 bonus, can choose str or dex, and since it's a trip check, you are implicitly allowed size bonus. Not only is this not true in reverse for a dexterity throw (+4 for each size smaller than medium), I'm starting to think, per RAW, a small swordsage would actually suffer a -4 penalty on any throw attempt!

Am I alone in finding this mildly revolting and completely contradictory to the flavor text of...just about everything about the discipline? If not, what should be done about it? Add in a "reverse" size bonus for dex-throws? That would just screw over medium sized characters more, though. Remove size bonuses from strength throws (and obviously from dex ones)? I'm not sure. Doesn't make logical sense you're making a trip check but not using size, and it's always difficult to impose a nerf on a character after the game's started. Especially since a) I helped him build this character and b) because of of role-playing, he's chosen to make some sub-par decisions in the build to better fit his vision (like the aforementioned crud AC) and as a result, on the whole, his character isn't overpowered.

But still, I'd like to fix how the system works to better fit the flavor text, even if I have to dance around not making it affect his character.

True Resurrection? Back to the topic I guess a small character could use the Confound the Big Folk tactical feat. Unsteady footing allows a small character to make an immediate trip attack and the victim isn't allowed a strength or size bonus against the trip. He needs to occupy the same square as him which he can easily do but it does need to be set up ahead of time and one victim at a time of course.