Settings and stories the rules can't handle (or don't handle well)

I would venture to say that, with the exception of novels explicitly based on D&D properties and settings specifically made for D&D, I have never encountered a novel or a setting where I felt D&D did have the rules for that.

Although I haven't read the Dying Earth books.

When I read The Dying Earth, I wasn't reminded of the way D&D handles PC magic. Some of the names were familiar (The Excellent Prismatic Spray) and some of the effects (the 'Forlorn Encystment' or whatever it was called, Cugel's "companion", the teleportation effects, and Cugel's poor reading acting as a Freedom spell), but it didn't have the same vibe. D&D magic-users don't often build cloning vats.

Eh, maybe it would have if I had read The Dying Earth before playing D&D.
 

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The main things St. Gygax incorporated from Vance's Dying Earth into D&D were the names of certain spells & items and the "fire & forget" mechanic. Beyond that, though, there is little similarity.

(At least, that's my take on things.)
 
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Honestly, I've played over 25 different RPGs in the last 30 years, most of the not D&D between 1981 and 1989, however I started with D&D and since 1989, stuck with D&D. But its not due to not trying other systems, I've already done that. And not that D&D is the best, but I couldn't get my current players to try another game. They've got too much invested in 3x to switch.

So in trying to play different games, we've stuck with the D&D rules and had no problems whatsoever. Could another ruleset work better? Certainly, it its not such problem to have to use another.

GP


Like I said, I do agree with the idea you can tell any story you want with any system. However, whether or not I'd personally be satisfied with running certain stories under certain systems is a different matter. My main point is that I believe there's more of a connection between mechanics and fluff than most people I've spoken to about rpgs tend to believe. Yes, I can tell any story I want; however, I do feel that a change in mechanics can (and usually does) have an impact on how the story comes across.

The two systems I most regularly play are D&D 4th Edition and GURPS 4th Edition. From my point of view, I get very different experiences out of those two systems; even if I'm trying to play the same or similar character. Neither system tells me I can't try to tell the story I want to tell; however, the two systems are very different in what they reward, what they encourage, and what type of solutions to problems are more or less supported.

For many people, D&D is fine as is and does everything they want to do; I in no way make an attempt to disparage* someone for enjoying a game. I only feel that there are times when I'm hungry for something that the system can't cook very well. It can provide those things for me, and, honestly, I'm lucky enough to have friends who DM well enough to help me enjoy playing with the group regardless of the system, but there are many times when I still feel hungry after the experience. I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll just say there are certain styles of gaming I enjoy and certain depths of story I enjoy which aren't always supported by D&D to an extent which satisfies what I want.

This isn't meant to imply that I never enjoy D&D. I enjoy it quite often. However, part of that enjoyment -for me- comes from understanding certain spices which are standard in a dish prepared by D&D. If I'm in the mood for something which is listed on the drive through menu, I very much enjoy it.

*I've had my fair portion of anti-system rants just like anyone else, but, in general, I feel people should play what makes them happy. Though, there are times when I honestly believe certain people are not aware they might have tastes better suited to a different game. At one time, I myself was in this category; I very wrongly assumed that rolling dice was pretty much the same experience everywhere.
 

I agree with this 85%.

The other 15% of me says, "Look at toolbox systems like HERO, GURPS or M&M...they can handle any setting."*

To date, I haven't found a setting I couldn't model with HERO, with enough thought. At one point, I had rules for running 2Ed D&D- including all the class & PC race quirks- for HERO 4th Fantasy HERO. Why? Because the group I was in hadn't played D&D but had played HERO. It was easier for me to do a little prep work and run the campaign with the Fantasy HERO rules. (OK, more than a little prep work...alas, all lost due to software obsolescence.)



* Though odds are high that a RPG built from the ground up to model a given setting SHOULD do a better job than a toolbox system.
I only read the OP and the last few posts here...

To the OP, yeah, that's difficult for D&D to handle, unless you rip out the magic system and replace it with your own - which is a crapload of work to do and not really worth it IMHO.

To the above quote I have to say it's close, but 100% of me says HERO can model anything, perhaps other "toolbox" RPG's as well, though HERO I know for sure could do the OP and a million other magic systems I could think of and have thought of over the years - all with just the core books. A custom built system might do better, but not by much at all, due to the fact that HERO gives you the rules you need to model the rules you need to model the setting you want to model. You are essentially building a custom RPG to model the setting you want to model when you choose to use HERO System, and that's what I love about it...
:);):cool::D:angel::devil:
 

Mostly it's the idea that there are only 10 things you can do:

1. Pull metal objects toward you.
2. Push metal objects away.
3. Soothe people's emotions.
4. Incite their emotions.
5. Sense other people using magic.
6. Hide your magic.
7. Make yourself physically stronger.
8. Enhance your senses.
9. See a few seconds into the future.
10. Something else I don't remember.

All these powers are limited only by how much metal you have of the appropriate sort, which I suppose could be fluffed into dailies and encounters, though theoretically you would be able to rob a metal storehouse and turn everything into at-wills.

4e it would work.

1: Everyone plays either a martial class or a pseduo-martial one (non-elemental barbarian, monk, weapon-using bard, etc.) Dailies are offered to you by the DM based on your element and do not recharge. Metal counts as Salves of Power. And low level magical encounter powers can be got out of the metal in the water supply.
 

One of the most difficult sitations to run would be from the Buffy The Vampire Slayer TV series episode called "Once More With Feeling".

Dawn accidentally summons a demon which wants her to marry him and he causes everybody to express their angst through singing as though they were in musical theater.

Try encouraging players to sing like this, especially since they more than likelye would not have taken any kind of singing lessons ever, and see what you get.

Some years back I played in a friend's Buffy campaign. To my horror he had has visit Lourne's bar in LA to find some information. Yes, in order to get said information we all had to get up and sing karaoke. Horrific, yes. Fun, also a yes.
 

w/r/t Point 1. I won't dispute that you can use D&D to play a ghost, vampire, Kaiju, or disembodied intelligence. I don't think the game handles these options very well, because (a) there isn't a lot in the way of rules for doing so, and (b) non-human characters tend to upset/conflict with other assumptions in the rules about how the game is to be played.

I disagree with (a) because there are alot of rules for handling ghosts, vampires, kaiju's and disembodied intelligences as NPC's, and in 3e at least, the rules that NPC's are under are virtually identical to those of PC's. I'll come back to 'b'.

Consider the vampire -- an iconic monster that people like to play. But the D&D vampire makes a really weird PC because of its mix of powerful abilities and crippling weaknesses. On the one hand, at-will level draining gives the vampire a huge offensive advantage. Damage reduction gives it a significant defensive advantage. At-will gaseous form gives it a powerful tool for avoiding traps, sneaking past enemies, and general exploration. Put this vampire in a typical dungeon crawl, and it is nigh unstoppable...At the same time, the vamp has critical weaknesses. Sunlight and running water destroy it. It cannot enter private buildings. It's tied to a coffin full of dirt. These weaknesses, deform the game experience. The vamp can't meet NPC's in the broad light of day. When it travels, it has to keep up with its coffin. When it dies, it can't be raised.

But this isn't a problem with the rules. You've just outlined in detail the exact contridiction to what you've asserted. You just asserted that there aren't alot of rules for handling vampires, and gone on to list how the rules handle them in detail in a wide variaty of situations. You are disproving your own point.

What you have actually demonstrated is point 'b'. If the party is playing vampires, then chances are you will have to tell different stories and provide different challenges than if the party wasn't playing undead, blood-sucking monsters with vast supernatural power. Isn't that however a good thing? I would assert that the rules obviously didn't handle vampires well if a character played a vampire and it made no effectual difference in the stories that the game supported. The fact that the stories have to change in responce indicate that the rules at least handle the vampires fine, and its really then a matter of whether the game master handles the stories well. Whether a game master can handle stories with vampires, godzilla and disembodied intelligences well is a different question than whether the rules can handle it. Whether vampires actually provide a good medium for stories and whether the game master can imagine and run those stories is independent of the rules involved.

In my opinion VtM tended to fail precisely because almost no one really wanted to be involved in a vampire story, so they ended up playing sessions of D&D were people happened to be Vampires in name but were simply black wearing superhero adventurers in fact. The rules in my opinion actually couldn't handle the central story that they ostencibly provided for - namely the exploration of what it meant to be a monster and the eventual denounement of the monster whether by redemption or death or both.

What does a disembodied, super-intelligent alien intelligence even do (other than torment Captain Kirk)?

But this is a story problem with playing disembodied super-intelligent aliens regardless of what game system we play. The problem with playing radically non-human entities is always our ability to relate to, understand, and care about what ever it is that these entities care about (if indeed they could be said to have emotions like 'caring' at all).

But I'd point out that there aren't a lot of rules support for, call it non-adventuring play. And what rules are out there are often fairly thin and poorly developed. Or long out of print. The focus of the rules is on adventuring. A group that isn't adventuring is ignoring big chunks of the rules (character classes built for adventuring, combat and adventuring equipment in the PHB, the combat rules, combat-oriented magic, etc. etc.) They may find themselves having to create significant houserules to do what they want (frex, creating an economic system that makes sense).

You point about the economic system is well made, because its one of the things that I think the rules really don't handle well and has been an objection of mine to D&D for nearly two decades now. However, many people - including myself - would argue that good support for RP centric play is precisely a very rules light approach. IMO, you don't want alot of dice rolling cluttering up a role-playing scene. At most, you want a conflict resolution roll occuring at the scenes climax or end. IMO, D&D's light social rules and flexibiilty over whether you use fortune at the beginning or fortune at the end (or both) to influence the situation mechanically are ideal in any RP heavy game. Systems that are rules heavy about non-combat situations tend to cause RP scenes to play out very much like combat scenes, with alot of dice rolling, meta-tactics, and meta-language communication and this just gets in the way of what you are trying to achieve. Ironicly, this means D&D may handle RP centric stories better than systems created to be RP centered, because often the designer thinks to support RP centered play you need the same sort of rules heavy crunch for role playing that you see in D&D for combat.

If I had to make an objection to D&D as a RP centered game it is that the combat system (because its both abstract and simulationist) gets in the way of RP centered combat. But if the story isn't combat heavy, it's relatively ok that it doesn't handle combat 'well' because that's not what the story is about.

D&D is built for melee combat. Many monsters lack ranged attacks, which makes them particularly vulnerable to ranged weapons. Combat in a dungeon environment takes place at extremely short range, making it hard to get off more than a shot or so before melee begins.

These objections aren't specific to guns, and seem to me to ignore how D&D is actually played. Quite early on, using the default rules, PC parties will find themselves highly advantaged at range vs. most monsters and in particular at very long ranges. In many games, combat in a dungeon environment is the exception and not the norm. So very many games I've played involve the PC's acting very much like teams of elite snipers and trying to initiate combat at very long range. Any DM with much experience at all knows that he can't use non-flying brutes without ranged attacks in the open versus a mid to high level party, because they'll simply outrange it or take to the air and pelt it to death. The presence or absence of guns don't change this at all.

For genre reasons, which are largely illogical, folks tend to overestimate the lethality of firearms while underestimating the lethality of, say, an axe to the face. In other words, folks I know do care that an enemy can survive 15 shots from a handgun even though they don't care that the same enemy can survive 15 blows from a longsword.

This was exactly my point about firearms.

D&D generally assumes that combatants will protect themselves with heavy armor. This causes a problem with modern settings where heavy armor doesn't really exist.

This is a problem D&D rules have that has nothing to do with firearms. D&D requires patching to a greater or lesser extent if you change the default genera even as much as moving the setting to an African or Central American pastiche. This has nothing to do really with firearms, which are easily patched relative to heavy armor IMO without changing any rules unrelated to firearms, and more to do with D&D having little or no active defences and relatively poor rules governing shields.
 
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Is it by that point simply name dropping? Is it enough to be set in Middle-Earth for you to use Middle-Earth like names, even if the characters and situations are nothing like those of actual cannonical Middle-Earth stories?

It is sufficient to have the places and history and names and background characters of Middle-Earth, coupled with the "physics" of that world (or a reasonable approximation thereof). As for the player characters, I don't give a damn if they look like a Fellowship knock-off or if they're a gang of bandits. Middle-Earth has bandits as well as heroes; maybe we're telling their story. That's the fun of roleplaying.

Because all of those things are wrong. They don't actually reflect what is in the story any more than Vancian magic does. The Valar commanded him to help the people of Middle Earth, but they don't actually have a switch where they can override what he does. Using his power is left up to his judgment. It was Gandalf's decision to veil his power and majesty. Gandalf can use magic all the time... he just doesn't want to.

Make up your mind. Do we or do we not know why Gandalf doesn't fling fireballs willy-nilly? You can't have it both ways. If we don't know, then my suggestions are just as valid as Vancian magic, but unlike Vancian magic they're extensions of established forces (Sauron, the Valar) and themes (pride and abuse of power leading to corruption) within the setting. If we do know, then Vancian magic is a pointless restriction with no basis.

And that gets us much closer to a good Middle Earth simulator than any of the suggestions you gave.

First of all, it's no better--from the perspective you seem to be arguing--than any of my suggestions. Everything I suggested would result in Gandalf being reluctant to use his power freely. Vancian magic is just one more way to do that.

But in any event, it doesn't get us closer to a Middle-Earth simulator. A proper Middle-Earth simulator could answer the question: "What would happen if Gandalf decided he didn't care about veiling his power and majesty any more?" What it gets us closer to is a "Lord of the Rings" simulator, and I already have one of those which does a far better job than any D&D adaptation. It's called "The Lord of the Rings" and it's sitting on my bookshelf. Just say, "Each player chooses a part from 'The Lord of the Rings,' and the group reads the book aloud, with players reading their lines and the DM reading the narration."

Voila. Rules complete. You have now simulated the "Lord of the Rings" story in the most perfect possible way, down to the last detail. Of course, it's utterly boring to play since the rules give you no option to deviate from any of the choices made by the protagonists, but so be it.
 
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It is sufficient to have the places and history and names and background characters of Middle-Earth, coupled with the "physics" of that world (or a reasonable approximation thereof).

But we don't really know the 'physics' of that world. We know a few things, but most of what we know wouldn't help us design a magic system. We know for example that investing in control over the physical world gives you less control over yourself. So, for example, we know that Gandalf's physical form as an Istari made it easier for him to influence Middle Earth, but easier for him to be influenced by it (and so share in Morgoth's curse), and we know that his decision to invest in a body that seemed weak and humble, and to remain a wanderer rather than settle down, was representative of his wise decision to not invest too heavily in the things of the middle world but instead keep his mission clearly in mind. We know that his possession of the Ring Vilya gave him a Noldorian influence over fire and shadow (because it was investment of the Elves native power as it concerned fire into the physical form of the ring) that inhanced his native power in some fahion, but not the mechanics of that. We know that natively he was a 'Wisdom' spirit, but not really what that means. We know that in some fashion Gandalf's staff was the symbol of the authority invested in him by the Valar, and as such most of his 'magic' was tied to it, but not really in details about what that magic was or how it worked. We know that Gandalf could do more magic than what he chose to do, but we don't know the limits of what he could do other than the fact that there were limits.

In short, virtually any system we could come up with could be a 'reasonable approximation of same'. From the text, we would have to be agnostic on the question of whether or not ME 'magic' worked like a quasi-Vancian system with spell slots and spells known and castable per day. We likewise have to remain agnostic over whether it worked like a HERO flexible power pool. We just don't know. All we can say is does the story produced by the system seem to work as a Tolkien style story.

As for the player characters, I don't give a damn if they look like a Fellowship knock-off or if they're a gang of bandits. Middle-Earth has bandits as well as heroes; maybe we're telling their story. That's the fun of roleplaying.

You are completely missing the point. Sure, we can tell the story of bandits in the Middle-Earth rather than a fellowship knock-off. For one thing, we can be reasonably certain that Fellowships between the free peoples like that almost never happened and that the friendship between Gimli and Legolas was singular and historically significant for both of their races, so if Fellowship knock-offs occurred at any time other than mythic instances then we aren't being true to the setting. But even if we are telling the story of bandits in the Middle Earth, we still have the same problem. How do we know them to be Middle Earth bandits by some other means than name dropping place names? The answer is that it must be the sort of story we can imagine happening to bandits in Middle Earth. So, perhaps we would look for inspiration to the story of Turin Turambar as Middle Earth's probably most famous bandit, and we'd try to tease out what elements of the story tell us about bandits in Middle Earth. Or perhaps we'd look at the culture revealed by the story of Trolls and Orcs not allied with Sauron and tease out what this would tell us about their story.

But we wouldn't be able to tease from the story how the combat system would work, or the magic system, or whether or not we should rely on a crunchy social system or just RP. Those choices aren't things that the story tells us, and how those choices are made reveal more about the designers preferences than they do about Tolkien's stories. Personally, I think the thinking about 'Gandalf was a 6th level wizard' better understands Tolkien's stories than licensed versions like MERPS do and better emulates the Tolkien story than MERPs would despite being designed to be a Middle Earth emulator.

Make up your mind. Do we or do we not know why Gandalf doesn't fling fireballs willy-nilly? You can't have it both ways.

Sure I can. We know why Gandalf didn't fling fireballs all the time - it's because he choses not to. We don't know what would happen if Gandalf had chosen something else. We don't know how many fireballs Gandalf could sling per day had he chosen to just go all out all the time. So we don't know how many Sauron could sling (if any).

If we don't know, then my suggestions are just as valid as Vancian magic, but unlike Vancian magic they're extensions of established forces (Sauron, the Valar) and themes (pride and abuse of power leading to corruption) within the setting. If we do know, then Vancian magic is a pointless restriction with no basis.

Sure, your suggestions in the abstract are just as valid as Vancian magic. But unlike Vancian magic, we don't know that your suggestions will help constrain players to produce stories in the style of Tolkien. We can certainly say that not only Vancian magic is likely to do so, and that there might be many other rules systems that can do so and that some of these might concievably do Tolkien even better than D&D. But that isn't what's at stake in this thread. We weren't trying to find the absolute best possible system to do a particular genera. The question is, "Can D&D do this well"? And I think the fair assessment is, "Yes. Yes, it can." In fact, it probably does it better than most systems where people have set out to do Tolkien explicitly.

But in any event, it doesn't get us closer to a Middle-Earth simulator. A proper Middle-Earth simulator could answer the question: "What would happen if Gandalf decided he didn't care about veiling his power and majesty any more?" What it gets us closer to is a "Lord of the Rings" simulator, and I already have one of those which does a far better job than any D&D adaptation. It's called "The Lord of the Rings" and it's sitting on my bookshelf.

Straw man. No one has said anything about simulating the Fellowship journey, which is probably the most boring thing I could imagine doing with a Middle Earth RPG. You say that a 'proper Middle-Earth simulator' could answer the question: "What would happen if Gandalf decided he didn't care about veiling his power and majesty any more?" But we get no firm ideas as to exactly what would happen from the text. We are back to opinion. We know that from time to time he did unveil his power and majesty and suffered no ill-effects for it. We know something about what he would have been like had he become completely corrupted because Tolkien wrote about it (he would have become the nanny-state from Hell). But there doesn't seem to be any direct connection between the act of using magic and corruption. The connection is between pride (and other vices) and corruption. Failing to veil his authority is a symptom. But none of this tells us whether we need a system to keep track of player character virtue and corruption, or whether we should leave that up to 'soft' RP decisions by the players. Which way you decide to go with that tells us more about your preferences as a designer than it tells us about the story. It's not like we can say from that decision alone whether the system can handle the story well, and its quite possible that either system design choice could result in a system capable of handling the story well. Which you prefer and which would work better for you is a matter of game mastery and player inclination.
 
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Do we or do we not know why Gandalf doesn't fling fireballs willy-nilly?
We know why Gandalf didn't fling fireballs all the time - it's because he choose not to. We don't know what would happen if Gandalf had choose something else. We don't know how many fireballs Gandalf could sling per day had he choose to just go all out all the time. So we don't know how many Sauron could sling (if any).

Q: How many fireballs would Gandalf fling if Gandalf could fling fireballs?

A: As many fireballs as Gandalf would if Gandalf could fling fireballs.
 

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