Seven Principles of Dynamic Temples

[El Mahdi]

Excellent thread and posts Man. I definitely book-marked/subscribed this thread for ideas. I've very much wanted to flesh out Pantheons this way also. I really like the church that George R. R. Martin developed in the Song of Ice and Fire series. Your churches remind me of what he did. Very Nice!

 

[SHARK]

Hey SHARK.

That's a great temple. It really does have a life of its own. And fills all roles that a community needs from it's church/temple/monastery. Including classics like Temple Prostitutes. I can see that any children born out this prostitution would be referred to as 'Children of Asherah' and be brought up in the Temple with the orphans.

Again, a very nice read.

Greetings!

Yep! Exactly, my friend! Thus, not only do the temple priestesses help other worshippers experience divine communion with the goddess Asherah through sacred sex together, but the children born to the priestesses are then raised at the temple; they are educated and sponsored to become educated, thoughtful, compassionate and productive adults that also contribute back to their community. Of course, they're all just as likely to be and remain worshippers and devout followers of the Goddess Asherah, so the faith becomes larger as well. The temple raises orphans the same way, and provides them with the same love, care, resources and opportunities. The town loves the "Children of Asherah"!

It's pretty neat to see--in many concrete ways--how important a temple like this becomes to the local community, and when the player characters are introduced/interacting with the temple, how important, and interesting it becomes for them as well. I hope all of you enjoy these examples, and are inspired in ways to make temples more dynamic in your own campaigns. I think you will have a good deal more fun, as will your players. Plus, you'll get an extra kick in designing and thinking about this stuff, and seeing as you set down and design layer upon layer, it almost seems to take on a sort of life on its own. Add the ongoing or occasional player involvement/interaction with your new temple, and *snap*--watch how the temple just bursts with new dynamic potentials! I love discovering and developing this kind of stuff in my own campaigns!

And the thing is, this is, I think, a good example of a fairly modest temple in a frontier/border town that is growing in prosperity.

I haven't provided an example yet of a truly huge, "awe-inspiring" temple from my campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[genshou]

Good read, but I see you referred to Khamanar as a "frontier town". Yet the architecture you describe seems beyond the scope of what is considered a "town" in D&D demographics (in fact, it is about as costly as a large castle from what I can estimate), as does the number of clergy and so forth at the temple. I did a quick generation of a kingdom using the famous generator based on "Medieval Demographics Made Easy" (find it here; the link to the generator is at the bottom), and the largest "town" (population of 7,680) ended up with 192 lay clergymen (and women in this case), 7 actual priests, and 51 guards. Am I correct in assuming that your choice of the word "town" was not meant to define the size of Khamanar according to the precise population ranges in DMG demographics?

 

[SHARK]

Good read, but I see you referred to Khamanar as a "frontier town". Yet the architecture you describe seems beyond the scope of what is considered a "town" in D&D demographics (in fact, it is about as costly as a large castle from what I can estimate), as does the number of clergy and so forth at the temple. I did a quick generation of a kingdom using the famous generator based on "Medieval Demographics Made Easy" (find it here; the link to the generator is at the bottom), and the largest "town" (population of 7,680) ended up with 192 lay clergymen (and women in this case), 7 actual priests, and 51 guards. Am I correct in assuming that your choice of the word "town" was not meant to define the size of Khamanar according to the precise population ranges in DMG demographics?

Greetings!

Thanks, Genshou! I'm glad you like it.

Well, no, I didn't have any kind of specific DMG reference in mind. I tend to build and populate my own campaign based first on a priority of what is reflected by the historical records; then I may tinker with it for additional fantastic elements, and then lastly do I reference the DMG or other sources; mostly to simply apply and make use of specific game mechanics/spells, etc. I don't pay much attention to the DMG population/town rules.

By the way--that's a very nice and interesting article, too. The rules for generation, population, densities, agriculture, and so on seem pretty good, as well. I noticed he developed it from data from Western Europe during the High Middle Ages, from the 11th-15th Centuries. I've linked it. I like it a lot, too! Good reference there, my friend!

I must admit, my town of Khamanar here is more reflective of agriculture, technology, economics, and population patterns of the ancient mediterranean and near-eastern worlds of mid-late antiquity, say from 200 BC to 600 AD.

Ancient Rome had a population of over one million people. (yes, over 1,000,000!)

Ancient Persia, India, China, as well as kingdoms throughout the Near East and Central Asia had populations in the millions, tens of millions, and more. They easily had small "towns" of 2-5,000 people; 5-10,000 people; 10-15,000 people, and so on. I haven't precisely made up the population of Khamanar, but I guessed it at between 8,000 and 12,000 people. Probably about 10,000 people or so. Because of the flow of trade, as it is on a important crossroads, in addition to growing river-commerce, I would say it has a permanent population of about 10,000 people; though from month to month, and depending on the season, that could swell by 1,000-1,200 soldiers staying for a few weeks of leave; 1,500-2,000 miners swarming into the town from mining camps in the north; a Jhangshan caravan of 200-1,000 people, from the north-east; and perhaps 1,000-2,000 merchants/caravan workers/mercenaries staying in the town from various merchant caravans from the south-east, as well as several merchant boats and barges from the river. Oh, and plus 200-1,000 merchants/mercenaries/caravan workers from trade caravans from the west. Obviously, these numbers fluctuate, and change constantly, week by week, with a few seasonal or routine spikes.

The town is, after all, on a similar frontier between something like the Persian Empire, and the ancient Indian Kingdoms, as well as Central Asian Kingdoms, and trade-routes heading across the great steppes to the north and east.

The largest temple of the town having roughly 600 priestesses/soldiers does not seem out of place in such an environment.

I suppose for an impoverished, medieval European town, simply change the temple to a simple barn-like thing of wood, with a few wooden worskshops, a small pool of fresh springwater, and give the town a poulation of 2,000 people. The temple can then have, what, 40, 50 priestesses? I mean, sure, it could be changed to more reflect the dirty, muddy, poor existence of most western Europeans through much of antiquity and the Early Middle Ages--instead of the glorious, wealthy, mediterranean cultures where even the smallest towns often boasted marble bathhouses and running water, and fine palaces of slaves and glorious temples.

However, a typically dirty, mud-soaked, disease and flea-swarmed impoverished European town of a few thousand poor, superstitious, inbred, xenophobic, half-frozen people isn't quite what seemed the best environment for a sophisticated, sensual goddess-cult of love, sunshine, music and art.

I mean, really. The areas have a very different *vibe* to them. As I noted, however, the ideas could be transported to such a dark, Western European environment. It would just take a bit of creativity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[WampusCat43]

Outstanding stuff, Shark. Two of my PCs just opened a temple of Torm in a small town. They're competing with a much larger church as well as another slightly larger one. I sent your temple of Asherah example (distilled down somewhat) to them as ideas they could use to increase their membership and compete with other established businesses in the town. This should be interesting.

 

[SHARK]

Outstanding stuff, Shark. Two of my PCs just opened a temple of Torm in a small town. They're competing with a much larger church as well as another slightly larger one. I sent your temple of Asherah example (distilled down somewhat) to them as ideas they could use to increase their membership and compete with other established businesses in the town. This should be interesting.

Greetings!

Very cool, Wampus! That should be interesting! I will also post an example of a dynamic temple in my campaign, based on the muddy, impoverished and grubby Western-European temple of the Middle Ages.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[genshou]

Interesting. I'm not thoroughly convinced that the old Mediterranean lifestyle was quite that splendid for the average community, but in a D&D world I can certainly see that happening!

I should design a big dynamic temple for the capital city of my campaign setting, since they're such a religious people.

 

[Jack7]

For me, religion in D&D is the most underdeveloped thing because a new religion sets up a barrier to new players yet is probably the single most important element in a rich campaign. I find that the only way to use religion effectively is to introduce it slowly, after all, even medieval Christians did not understand some of the central tenets of their faith, especially if they were poor and illiterate, so the PCs can find things out about a world's religions is an organic fashion.

I agree with this sentiment entirely in one sense, and that's why we use real world religions in my setting. Just sprung up and imaginary religions tend to be superficial, bland, not focused or well developed, and inspire little confidence or devotion. Plus they have no real background per se, little to nothing that is already known about them, or even misunderstood about them.

They tend not to be religions so much as a sort of vague "power source" with gods being channeled for power rather than inspiring worldviews and religious duty and devotion. Game religions tend to have no sense of real importance to most characters (especially those who are not clerics, yet in the real world nobles and others - a lot of Saints started out as soldiers, adventurers, and noblemen - were, and laymen are often as pious and devout as professional clerics) or to the larger world. Such game religions don't often change the way people interact with or view the world, almost none of them have any sense of Irony and weight of conflicting duty (Mercy versus Justice, for instance, built into the same religious organization - it's mostly either Mercy or Justice) they just sort of service minor and local problems. A la:

This lead to many interesting and morally ambigious sessions where the party were forced to ponder the riddle of whether to destroy the world to release all the souls in it to be re-born on new worlds, far from the evil of the Galchutt or to keep these monsters locked away on Praemal but also doom all the souls on that world to an endless cycle of suffering and despair.

Real religions and real religious duties and ideals often require morally ambiguous choices and the problems that kind of thing stimulates.not just in the short run, and in local matters, but in the long run, and for the future of the world.

That being said I think Ydars made an excellent set of observations on religion generally speaking, and Shark made an excellent post about how to address many of the weaknesses and much of the hollowness of "in-game religions."

I enjoyed reading his ideas.
Of course I tend to think by reading Shark that he often knows his history.

 

[SHARK]

Interesting. I'm not thoroughly convinced that the old Mediterranean lifestyle was quite that splendid for the average community, but in a D&D world I can certainly see that happening!

I should design a big dynamic temple for the capital city of my campaign setting, since they're such a religious people.

Greetings!

LOL!!! Well, true, Genshou. I'm exaggerating a bit--I mean, sure, there was lots of poverty and disease in the ancient Mediterranean world as well...however, it's rather one of scale, scope, and available opportunities and amenities, I would say. Just saying that relatively speaking, most urban communities in an mediterranean environment enjoyed a significantly higher standard of living, and enjoyed a considerably higher measure of the pleasures and joys of life than most of the dark ages/middle ages Western European communities. Generally speaking, most of Western Europe didn't achieve the same level of ammenities and sophistication enjoyed by the mediterranean world in antiquity...until considerably after 1500 AD, perhaps in some ways not until the 17th or even 18th centuries.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, here is an example of a small group of dynamic temples located in a small, dirty, impoverished medieval town. Each of these temples are small, and support a staff of perhaps a few dozen clerics and initiates each. None of the temples are wealthy, and all live in simple, rugged temples of mostly wood and some stone. The temples are dedicated to working together at all times to improve their little community in every way, and are zealously committed to protecting the town from any threat, as well as making a very real and constant difference in the people's lives.

The small town is grateful, and even on the rough frontier, they manage to enjoy life much more because of everything that the small group of temples provide for them. In turn, the townspeople and locals from around the region hold the priests and priestesses in great respect, and donate money, goods, animals, and other products to their temples with devoted enthusiasm and piety. The town is small, isolated, and impoverished by the standards of the broader world--however, they are joyful, devout, united and remain ruggedly prosperous and hard working, gradually improving their lives and their whole community, season by season, and year by year. The righteous temples of their patron gods faithfully help them all to make this happen, and to make their little town a worthwhile and content place to live, work, and prosper.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Patron God: WHITE CHOCOLATE RHINO
Patron God: PEANUT BUTTER WOLF
Patron God: VANILLA CREAM TIGER
Patron Goddess: ROMANTIC BANANA
Patron Goddess: RIGHTEOUS ORANGE
Patron Goddess: HAPPY PEACH



WHITE CHOCOLATE RHINO
God of War, Valor and Strength
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: War, Valor, Strength, and Chivalry
Domains: War, Valor, Strength, and Glory

The noble clerics of the temple of White Chocolate Rhino are always training in warfare and martial skills, in between their diligent academic studies and routine discipline of conducting sessions of devout prayer. Clerics of White Chocolate Rhino train the town's militia in weekly drills, and sponsor monthly occasions of training and classes on weapon skills, as well as military tactics. Every week, clerics of White Chocolate Rhino host athletic competitions of exercises and disciplined routines designed to build strength, stamina, and agility.

PEANUT BUTTER WOLF
God of Mountains, Beasts, and Winter
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Mountains, Forests, Winter, and Beasts.
Domains: Animal, Earth, Air, and Water.

The stern clerics of the temple of Peanut Butter Wolf protect the community, and the surrounding lands with ceaseless and disciplined vigor. The clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf promote a harmonious relationship at all times between society and the natural world, and seek to craft strong laws that help shape society in such ways. Clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf preach the greatness of discipline, knowledge, strength, and reverence for the great forests, mountains, and the good beasts of the land.

Clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf assist miners heading into the mountains, as well as trappers and hunters, setting up specific kill zones, and teaching them responsible hunting and management of the forest and animal resources. Clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf also supervise small shrines honoring Peanut Butter Wolf within each of the town's mines, and work to establish safe working conditions and equipment.

Throughout the year, clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf also work with local farmers, tilling the soil, and bringing the harvests of the land in. Clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf often work closely with local farmers working on breeding their animals, hoping to improve the generations by selective breeding, excellent diets, and disciplined care and training.

VANILLA CREAM TIGER
God of Righteousness, The Sun, and Judgement
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Good, Law, Sun, and Destruction
Domains: Good, Law, Sun, and Destruction

The righteous clerics of the temple of Vanilla Cream Tiger are ever-vigilant against the forces of Darkness, and study intricate law codes and books, working on creating, explaining, discussing and establishing strong, effective laws for society. Clerics of Vanilla Cream Tiger usually convene various Law Courts within the town, and work with clerics of Righteous Orange in riding the countryside to smaller villages and outposts, settling disputes, promoting law and justice, and holding rough justice along the frontier.

The clerics of Vanilla Cream Tiger are especially vigilant against especially horrific monsters, such as Undead, as well as evil Outsiders and evil, spiritual forces. Every summer, the temple of Vanilla Cream Tiger work with clerics from the temple of White Chocolate Rhino, as well as clerics from the temple of Peanut Butter Wolf in holding forest and mountain survival classes, and sponsoring vigorous survival training and military operations throughout the mountains and forests surrounding the town.

ROMANTIC BANANA
Goddess of Romantic Love, Passion, and Beauty
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Love, Passion, Beauty and Art
Domains: Good, Crafting, Beauty, and Charm

The romantic, passionate clerics of the temple of Romantic Banana are charming, gracious, and romantic, and seek to promote love, beauty and art wherever they go, and throughout the small town where they live. Clerics of Romantic Banana provide training in many crafting skills, as well as music, and art. Clerics of Romantic Banana teach people to really understand love, and to seek love, and to do so with passion, dignity, and integrity. The clerics of Romantic Banana teach people the importance of beauty--not only the inherent beauty of themselves as individuals, but also in appreciating and honoring the beauty in everyone else, and the beauty throughout life, in its many forms and contributions. The clerics of Romantic Banana maintain that it is love, beauty and passion that make life ultimately worth living, for these things immeasurably add to and enhance everything else in life, and make everything else worthwhile.

Throughout the year, the temple of Romantic Banana work on projects to bring beauty to the town, in the form of artwork, fine sculptures, statues, and glorious fountains, as well as ornately decorated buildings. Priestesses of Romantic Banana teach classes on dancing, singing, music, and poetry. The temple of Romantic Banana often work on joint projects with the temple of Righteous Orange for various community projects, open to everyone, to bring joy and appreciation for knowledge and art.

RIGHTEOUS ORANGE
Goddess of Magic, Law and Knowledge
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Magic, Law, Knowledge, and Justice
Domains: Magic, Law, Knowledge, and Good

The righteous clerics of the temple of Righteous Orange work zealously to promote just laws, encouraging magical skills and arcane learning, as well as working tirelessly in promoting and spreading education, wisdom and knowledge. Clerics of Righteous Orange run the town's several schools for various age groups of children, and also sponsor classes every month for adults of the town to attend.

Every year, the temple of Righteous Orange sponsors a select group of young students seeking to gain training and enhanced education within the halls of the realm's greatest schools and academies. The temple of Righteous Orange works very hard to provide basic education for everyone, regardless of their status or wealth, and to promote literacy, as well as they joys, knowledge, and inspiration gained from reading and writing.

HAPPY PEACH
Goddess of Healing, Mercy and Redemption
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Healing, Mercy, Redemption, and Wisdom
Domains: Healing, Mercy, Good, and Community

The cheerful clerics of the temple of Happy Peach work fervently to bring healing, wisdom and redemption everywhere they go, and throughout the small town where they live. Clerics of Happy Peach organize and operate the town's only hospital, and work with clerics of Peanut Butter Wolf at the town's veterinary clinic, where they heal animals, and often send teams out to the countryside to bring healing and health to various animals of the community. Clerics of Happy Peach also work to help everyone they can through classes teaching the virtues and spiritual benefits of mercy, and the benefits of wisdom in every area of life.

While there are occasions of disagreement between clerics of Happy Peach, and clerics of Vanilla Cream Tiger, both groups of clerics are wise enough to understand that in administering and prosecuting law and justice--that there must always be room and consideration for both Judgement and Mercy. Clerics of Righteous Orange are always brought into these debates, and the three groups of clerics spend many hours in their favourite tavern in town discussing their philosophies of law, justice, judgement and mercy. Clerics of Happy Peach work often especially with clerics of Righteous Orange in this regard, holding such public discussions as yet another method to educate the town's people in being thoughful, considerate, educated and knwoledgeable in such matters, believing that such knowledge makes them not only better citizens, but better people and members of the community.