Shadow Conjuration and non-offensive spells

[Li Shenron]

It's all in the "only 20% likely to work" part.

I wouldn't say it is that simple, that's why I posted this thread.

Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.

A shadow creature has one-fifth the hit points of a normal creature of its kind (regardless of whether it’s recognized as shadowy). It deals normal damage and has all normal abilities and weaknesses. Against a creature that recognizes it as a shadow creature, however, the shadow creature’s damage is one-fifth (20%) normal, and all special abilities that do not deal lethal damage are only 20% likely to work. (Roll for each use and each affected character separately.)

Is the fact that a mount can carry you really an "ability"? Is it an "effect"? What I cannot discern from the spell description is: is the shadow-conjured creature or object really there or not? Does it depend on the viewer if it's there or not? The description is clear for combat. It is not clear about the substance of the creature. If you win your save against a shadow-conjured monster or a wall for example, can you simply walk through it like it was incorporeal? More or less the question is the same.

 

[Thanee]

It's there, but only like 20% of the "density", I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Diirk]

For a creature (such as a phantom steed), its there with 20% hp and 20% of the damage per normal, no?

Not that it matters, you can voluntarily fail any save so everyone can go right on believing your horses are real. And I don't see why you can't automatically fail your own save either, its your magic, you should be able to have it effect you however you want it to.

 

[Thanee]

The phantom steed would be only 20% as effective as a regular phantom steed.

That's why it should have reduced carrying weight at least (reduced speed makes little sense), because that's the effect of the phantom steed.

All the higher level goodies of the spell are 20% likely to occur in the shadow conjured version.

That's how I would do it at least.

Shadow conjuration is great to be used against others, especially if they fail their save to disbelieve, but not so good to aid yourself.

Or in other words, shadow conjuration is not very good at producing effects to help you, since you know they are not real and they are only 20% as good as the spell you copy.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sniktch]

Another question: can you apply metamagic to a shadow spell? Is there any problem if I extend or heighten a Shadow-Conjured spell for example, or does the effect normally apply to the replicated spell?

I allow this. I know this isn't 'per the rules' but I also allow mages to meta-magic effects without increasing the spell level is the overall level is still within the range of Shadow Conjuration (i.e. extended mage armor, for example).

 

[Thanee]

I allow this with limited wish, so makes sense to allow it with shadow spells as well.

An extended conjuration (creation) is still a conjuration (creation).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Beholder Bob]

What logic do you use to decide if the caster believes or not? You could just as easily argue that illusions require the caster to concentrate on and believe in the item/creature the illusion represents - that the spell is an act of belief. If illusions are automatically disbelieved in, why the threat from phantasmal killer to the caster (if turned against him w helm o' telepathy)?

The phantom steed should lose HP (it isn't as real) - but its ability to move over terrain types shouldn't be impacted but its carry capacity should be if not believed in (illusionary claws cut less and so the horse should support less when its rider doesn’t believe). Creating an obscurement (fog) should still function fine (it still blocks the view, even if not believed in - like a solid image hologram) - but solid fog would not prevent movement very well if not believed in. Basically - if physically interaction occurs - disbelief effects it. So Secure Shelter could be breached by creatures that do not believe in it - and sleep conditions are not grand if you disbelieve.

"Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature."
Note the use of the word 'can'. I take this as an option - you may choose to believe and not make a save.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.
This leads me to believe that using unseen servant suffers from a reduction in lifting capacity automatically.

BB

 

[Thanee]

What logic do you use to decide if the caster believes or not?

By the logic, that a spellcaster knows what spells he casts.

You could just as easily argue that illusions require the caster to concentrate on and believe in the item/creature the illusion represents - that the spell is an act of belief. If illusions are automatically disbelieved in, why the threat from phantasmal killer to the caster (if turned against him w helm o' telepathy)?

Helm of Telepathy? Can't follow you there... do you mean something like Spell Turning?

Is there a specific example, which you refer to, where Phantasmal Killer is turned on the caster and he has to actually save against it? Because normally, I wouldn't see the need there (it's an illusion and he knows it, if he is aware, that it is his own spell, of course).

Bye
Thanee

 

[3d6]

Phantasmal Killer
Illusion (Phantasm) [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with), then Fortitude partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a phantasmal image of the most fearsome creature imaginable to the subject simply by forming the fears of the subject’s subconscious mind into something that its conscious mind can visualize: this most horrible beast. Only the spell’s subject can see the phantasmal killer. You see only a vague shape. The target first gets a Will save to recognize the image as unreal. If that save fails, the phantasm touches the subject, and the subject must succeed on a Fortitude save or die from fear. Even if the Fortitude save is successful, the subject takes 3d6 points of damage.
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

There's the specific example.

 

[Thanee]

Ah, thank you.

Hmm... that's weird, indeed. Altho, it's probably not known to you, that your own spell is what assaults you, which is why you don't automatically disbelief.

But those instantaneous illusions are a bit special, I am more talking about those, that actually stay for a while.

You create the effect and you know it's an illusion. I think that's enough to say, that you have proof that it isn't real.

Bye
Thanee