Raven Crowking
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Shadowfist build -- Comments please!
- Thread starter Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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You gave over a vast number of Feats as combat abilities, that was one of the major bits I noticed. I don't know that I agree with that, unless these guys are just your go-to damage dealers. I see a lot of blending among the Thief/Barbarian/Monk total ability list, but at first glance (without leafing through the SRD to do a double-check) they seem over-powered to me, and their Feat selection then becomes more limited.
I'm familiar (enough) with the style rules from OA/Rokugan (I never remember which is which) to recognize that you're referring to it, but I'm unclear as to which styles you're using. My understanding of the post is such that these guys are just gaining feats end over end until 20th level. There's little or no reason to leave the class for a PrC that I can see, not even Sacred Fist or the C.Arcane version, Enlightend Fist. These guys are just that powerful.
Some of the abilities you list require No Armor; have you retained the Monk WIS+ to AC? I didn't see it listed, and I know better than to assume without some grounds to support it, but please clarify how you see their final AC build (with their dodge bonus, as well, because I'm trying to understanding if they're built for high ATT power with no staying power, or if they're meant to be 100% agile).
We've already discussed that I don't know your mechanics exactly, but I'm assuming, based on those prior posts, that the skills they get are balanced against their BAB and that they're slated to not hit as often as Fighters, whom you've said are simply brutal in that regard.
I'm not familiar with Dervish off the top of my head; is the 22nd level power based on them, because it sounds familiar enough that I think it is, but I'm not certain. This would go back to my statement that there isn't any reason to leave the class.
Are you using PrCs? You refer to leaving the class, but your two fully developed classes, this & Druid, are both well developed enough that there's no point in leaving them.
Good morning.
I'm familiar (enough) with the style rules from OA/Rokugan (I never remember which is which) to recognize that you're referring to it, but I'm unclear as to which styles you're using. My understanding of the post is such that these guys are just gaining feats end over end until 20th level. There's little or no reason to leave the class for a PrC that I can see, not even Sacred Fist or the C.Arcane version, Enlightend Fist. These guys are just that powerful.
Some of the abilities you list require No Armor; have you retained the Monk WIS+ to AC? I didn't see it listed, and I know better than to assume without some grounds to support it, but please clarify how you see their final AC build (with their dodge bonus, as well, because I'm trying to understanding if they're built for high ATT power with no staying power, or if they're meant to be 100% agile).
We've already discussed that I don't know your mechanics exactly, but I'm assuming, based on those prior posts, that the skills they get are balanced against their BAB and that they're slated to not hit as often as Fighters, whom you've said are simply brutal in that regard.
I'm not familiar with Dervish off the top of my head; is the 22nd level power based on them, because it sounds familiar enough that I think it is, but I'm not certain. This would go back to my statement that there isn't any reason to leave the class.
Are you using PrCs? You refer to leaving the class, but your two fully developed classes, this & Druid, are both well developed enough that there's no point in leaving them.
Good morning.
Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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Noted, questions still stand.
Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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Hey RC.
Read it again, now with coffee up in me. This is an improvement (for me, not you). So I'll do this full and proper justice and go point by point. Thanks for going over some of my initial questions; I totally agree with you that classes do need to be balanced better and give a reason to stay in them, rather than bounce out to a PrC at first opportunity, but when I first flipped through your class structure I thought "Damn. These cats are tight." Which raised the flag in my head; would there be a PrC worth leaving the class for? Hence, the balancing questions which arose from that. And I promise to never again respond to one of your posts without coffee and paying more attention. That being said.
- Style & Flavor: You are already a master of this, as always, mad props. Your classes for this system have so far been excellent, and I take no issue with the design. Not being a fan of monks myself, I prefer this design de facto. Not turning into a Native Outsider is a big boon. I hate that power.
- How many dances can you perform at once? I re-read Addagio and that's where the primary ability to avoid damage seems to have gone. I like this ability. But I'll go in order to avoid confusion.
- First Step; IIRC, not being flat-footed also means they won't take SA damage unless Flanked or immobilized/denied their AC bonus, yes?
- Dancing Blow; I'm familiar with Fencing from another post, so I think I get this; this was also part of what I was trying to cover in my intial post. Since I can't see the math I don't know if it'll "work" but based on what I've been able to intuit, this should do nicely and obviously fits in very well with this concept.
- Adagio; I'm still going point by point, but this is obviously a rock solid ability; you note specifically "move action only" - what about Quickened, Swift or Instant actions? In other words: can I get around this in any way, or is it ineligible for playing pushing? If I use it, that's it, yeah? Also, under your system, can I purchase a Feat to either push the requirement down (thus gaining less AC) or move the requirement up (thus gaining more AC?)
- Arms of the Vikali: Flurry of blows, near as I can tell. Nice flavor. I'd like to know who on (insert planet here) Vikali is/was/will have been. Hey, a God that hasn't existed yet, but is brought to form via the collective subconcious and still grants spells. Remind me to write that down.
- Dancing Partners: Very nice. Again, speaks well to the total structure of the class and its flavor, but how likely is it? It's great, but is it something that will come up regularly? Is it possible if Clones were created that they would, in turn, add Dancing Partners? Interesting question: have you considered Shadow Clone as a high level ability almost expressly for that purpose?
- Extra Step: you saved the run away/avoid the AoO abuse that I was afraid of. Nice.
- Plie: Can I both Plie and Allegro? Can I Plie and stack it with any other dances?
- School of Dance; which styles are you drawing on? Which book, or are you creating all new styles? This is something I think all monks should have, but they were introduced in one of the OA books. I don't know if those are the only styles or if there are others. Very nice addition, though. With you, I wouldn't be surprised if you had new styles.
- Floorcraft; That's nice. That's very nice.
- Tarantella; Spinning Strike, yes?
- Fandango; This is very well developed. The exchange of the build for the execution is excellent.
Good: As I said before (but will repeat) your flavor text is fantastic, and your design is very good. I like the focus on EX abilities instead of the beatable SU or SLA. I honestly don't understand mathematically what they're capable of, damage wise, but the bits that involve combat seem very good to me. I grep you've redone the weapon list, and I can see where playing a Halfling would (as always) have some serious advantages.
Bad: I'm unclear as to how effective they'll really be at avoiding damage in your system, specifically. Obviously, the go-to class abilities such as Dodge & Evasion have survived the transition intact, but I don't know if that'll be sufficient to get them out of the way. One of my earlier question was for that reason; can they both avoid damage (Addagio) and deal damage (Arms of Vikali) in some sort of balance without completely opening themselves up for taking a pounding?
For Example: Leading Step - the Shadowfist leads their target in an intricate dance that they don't understand and cannot master the movements of; Leading Step dictates where an opponent must go to in reaction to where the Shadowfist will soon be. This results in a -2 penalty to hit the Shadowfist, and a +2 Circumstance Bonus to hit for the Shadowfist so long as the target is locked in Leading Step. The opponent must make an Opposed Perform (Dance) check to match the moves of Leading Step. The Shadowfist may maintain Leading Step each round with a successful Perform (Dance) check, DC 10 + Opponent's HD + Dex modifier.
So it becomes something like a grapple, with far more finesse. you could even bump it up to Tango, a very close dance in which the opponent can only use Light Weapons, while the Shadowfist is using elbows/knees/etc.
So those are some initial thoughts. You've done a great job here, I could see where some polish can be applied and I pointed those out. Was this helpful? Your thoughts?
Read it again, now with coffee up in me. This is an improvement (for me, not you). So I'll do this full and proper justice and go point by point. Thanks for going over some of my initial questions; I totally agree with you that classes do need to be balanced better and give a reason to stay in them, rather than bounce out to a PrC at first opportunity, but when I first flipped through your class structure I thought "Damn. These cats are tight." Which raised the flag in my head; would there be a PrC worth leaving the class for? Hence, the balancing questions which arose from that. And I promise to never again respond to one of your posts without coffee and paying more attention. That being said.
- Style & Flavor: You are already a master of this, as always, mad props. Your classes for this system have so far been excellent, and I take no issue with the design. Not being a fan of monks myself, I prefer this design de facto. Not turning into a Native Outsider is a big boon. I hate that power.
- How many dances can you perform at once? I re-read Addagio and that's where the primary ability to avoid damage seems to have gone. I like this ability. But I'll go in order to avoid confusion.
- First Step; IIRC, not being flat-footed also means they won't take SA damage unless Flanked or immobilized/denied their AC bonus, yes?
- Dancing Blow; I'm familiar with Fencing from another post, so I think I get this; this was also part of what I was trying to cover in my intial post. Since I can't see the math I don't know if it'll "work" but based on what I've been able to intuit, this should do nicely and obviously fits in very well with this concept.
- Adagio; I'm still going point by point, but this is obviously a rock solid ability; you note specifically "move action only" - what about Quickened, Swift or Instant actions? In other words: can I get around this in any way, or is it ineligible for playing pushing? If I use it, that's it, yeah? Also, under your system, can I purchase a Feat to either push the requirement down (thus gaining less AC) or move the requirement up (thus gaining more AC?)
- Arms of the Vikali: Flurry of blows, near as I can tell. Nice flavor. I'd like to know who on (insert planet here) Vikali is/was/will have been. Hey, a God that hasn't existed yet, but is brought to form via the collective subconcious and still grants spells. Remind me to write that down.
- Dancing Partners: Very nice. Again, speaks well to the total structure of the class and its flavor, but how likely is it? It's great, but is it something that will come up regularly? Is it possible if Clones were created that they would, in turn, add Dancing Partners? Interesting question: have you considered Shadow Clone as a high level ability almost expressly for that purpose?
- Extra Step: you saved the run away/avoid the AoO abuse that I was afraid of. Nice.
- Plie: Can I both Plie and Allegro? Can I Plie and stack it with any other dances?
- School of Dance; which styles are you drawing on? Which book, or are you creating all new styles? This is something I think all monks should have, but they were introduced in one of the OA books. I don't know if those are the only styles or if there are others. Very nice addition, though. With you, I wouldn't be surprised if you had new styles.
- Floorcraft; That's nice. That's very nice.
- Tarantella; Spinning Strike, yes?
- Fandango; This is very well developed. The exchange of the build for the execution is excellent.
Good: As I said before (but will repeat) your flavor text is fantastic, and your design is very good. I like the focus on EX abilities instead of the beatable SU or SLA. I honestly don't understand mathematically what they're capable of, damage wise, but the bits that involve combat seem very good to me. I grep you've redone the weapon list, and I can see where playing a Halfling would (as always) have some serious advantages.
Bad: I'm unclear as to how effective they'll really be at avoiding damage in your system, specifically. Obviously, the go-to class abilities such as Dodge & Evasion have survived the transition intact, but I don't know if that'll be sufficient to get them out of the way. One of my earlier question was for that reason; can they both avoid damage (Addagio) and deal damage (Arms of Vikali) in some sort of balance without completely opening themselves up for taking a pounding?
For Example: Leading Step - the Shadowfist leads their target in an intricate dance that they don't understand and cannot master the movements of; Leading Step dictates where an opponent must go to in reaction to where the Shadowfist will soon be. This results in a -2 penalty to hit the Shadowfist, and a +2 Circumstance Bonus to hit for the Shadowfist so long as the target is locked in Leading Step. The opponent must make an Opposed Perform (Dance) check to match the moves of Leading Step. The Shadowfist may maintain Leading Step each round with a successful Perform (Dance) check, DC 10 + Opponent's HD + Dex modifier.
So it becomes something like a grapple, with far more finesse. you could even bump it up to Tango, a very close dance in which the opponent can only use Light Weapons, while the Shadowfist is using elbows/knees/etc.
So those are some initial thoughts. You've done a great job here, I could see where some polish can be applied and I pointed those out. Was this helpful? Your thoughts?
Raven Crowking
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Thia Halmades
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Feel free to respond at length later on; again, sorry if I seemed dismissive this morning, I was trying to help and wound up being unclear as to what you were doing, that's why I gave you a full blown break down. The points I skipped were merely the ones that were obvious (Imp. Plie, Imp. Floorwork, etc.).
I figured a "Dancing Grapple" would work well for you, glad you like it! I'll continue to mull on this, I have a few ideas kicking in my head which might help you, but my brain needs to percolate on the idea.
Oh, right, I remember: What about Katas? Complicated Dances which translate directly into combat. Did you intentionally avoid them? Because they are, literally, fighting dances. Would you consider allowing the character to choose either a Kata or a Style, or are they the same thing?
At 5th level, Character Learns the Swan Kata; they recieve a +2 bonus to deflect attacks of opportunity. This bonus stacks with Floorwork. A character may make a standard attack during a Kata, but may not engage in a Dance or a Full Attack during a Kata.
More thoughts. Glad I'm being helpful!
PS - I'm a Damn Yankee, but I plan on doing some travelling, and the little lady loves theater, so I may double-dip, head up for a show and hook up with you for coffee/one shotting while staying at the local hotel. It wouldn't happen for months (we just bought an overpriced condo which is consuming all of my resources) but its a strong possibility.
I figured a "Dancing Grapple" would work well for you, glad you like it! I'll continue to mull on this, I have a few ideas kicking in my head which might help you, but my brain needs to percolate on the idea.
Oh, right, I remember: What about Katas? Complicated Dances which translate directly into combat. Did you intentionally avoid them? Because they are, literally, fighting dances. Would you consider allowing the character to choose either a Kata or a Style, or are they the same thing?
At 5th level, Character Learns the Swan Kata; they recieve a +2 bonus to deflect attacks of opportunity. This bonus stacks with Floorwork. A character may make a standard attack during a Kata, but may not engage in a Dance or a Full Attack during a Kata.
More thoughts. Glad I'm being helpful!
PS - I'm a Damn Yankee, but I plan on doing some travelling, and the little lady loves theater, so I may double-dip, head up for a show and hook up with you for coffee/one shotting while staying at the local hotel. It wouldn't happen for months (we just bought an overpriced condo which is consuming all of my resources) but its a strong possibility.
Raven Crowking
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Raven Crowking
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Revised Shadowfist Class Abilities
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