Shadowrun 4e - Some quick questions

[Wik]

Hey all.

I've heard a lot of people talk about how SR 4e is a much better version of SR, and I would think - it'd have to be. Looking over my copy of SR 3e (and remembering 2e from "back in the day"), I know how complicated the system can be.

However, that being said, I've been in the mood to fiddle with some new systems. We tried out Savage Worlds, and at first it was a blast. But the combat system wound up annoying the players a few too many times. And WFRP's CharGen system meant it was instantly vetoed by half my group - they hated it.

So, I was at my FLGS and came across the 4e SR stuff, and started flipping through the books. Not only is the main book seemingly well done, it's surprisingly cheap! (38 bucks cdn, when the average player's book is usually ten bucks more... though this probably has to do with new canadian pricing than anything on wizkids' part) So, I started flipping through it, and I like what I see - info on what runners actually DO, a list of 2070s lingo, some harsh language that actually FITS the setting (I like curse words, I must admit), and an interesting section on the sex trade, drugs, and all those other things we know runners did, but which FASA never had the guts to truly dwell on (Besides B-T-L).

So, how easy are the rules to learn? I imagine they'll be tough, but they are somewhat lighter than those in 3e, right? Does it preserve the usual SR lethality? Are armour rules, grenade rules, rigging rules, etc... decent? And, most importantly, how is the new Chargen system working? I always loved SR's priority system... is this new system similar? What about contacts, buddies, and the like? Also, how many critters are to be found in the main book?

My goal, ideally, would be to pick up the main book, and maybe one or two sourcebooks (the one on corporate Enclaves really appealed to me... a campaign set in Nairobi? I'm there!) and run a mini campaign before we fully commit to 4e in August or so.

Any feedback would be awesome. Thanks.

 

[Baumi]

I read it when it came out and didn't have a chance to playtest it yet, so my memory about the rules might be a bit faulty, but I will try anyway:

-) The Rules are more streamlined, especially the skill-tests because you roll against a fixed target number and count the successes instead of the old system where you ALSO have a variable target number...

-) Char-Gen uses a Point-Buy System now. While I miss the old and unique priority System, it seems that this could work quite well.

-) Matrix got a BIG overhowl since they now integrated WIRELESS Lan, which even lets a Decker disable a Smartgun-link or other Cyberware in the middle of a fight (which is not easy, but possible).

-) Contacts are still in there.

-) I can't say anything about the lethality because I haven't playtestet it yet..

-) Magic is also changed. You simply learn the spell now and don't have to choose the power-level of it (you do that at casting time) and you can create your own Tradition now (including which Elementals you can summon and how you summon them).

-) There are only a few critters in there but I think it's more then enough for the beginning (Dragons and Elementals are in there!).

There are much more changes in there but I would have to reread the rulebook again to refresh my memory. But I do know that I really liked most of the changes and can recommend it to anyone who like the genre ...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

We have had two playtests (I can't say it was anything more, since it where different GMs each time, and no campaigns spawned of them)

- Lethality:
I think it is as lethal as 3E. Which for me means, if you know how to optimize your character, not that much, but the death spiral is still there, and you still can fill all your damage boxes in a single round...
If your opponent has better reflexes then you, you might get to act, but you might still not survive the first round. (But this case is usually rare for Shadowrunners. You should be prepared for your opposition, and the opposition should be slower, less well armed, and surprised.)

I am not a big fan of the multiple actions per round due to reflexboosting, though. I think if we ever pick up a real 4E campaign, that might be houseruled. (I don't mind reflex-boosting being important or powerful, but it's bad for gameplay experience if some people have to twiddle their thumbs while the Street Samurais take their second, third or possibly fourth initiative pass that round.)

- Learning the rules:
The basics are simple. A lot of learning is done during character creation, when you have to figure out what all the skills you can learn do, when you select your gear (weapons, cyberware or possibly magical items). Character creation still takes a lot of time for these reasons and the fact that you're using a point-buy system. (The 3E priority system wouldn't change that much,though - a lot of the point-buy comes from selecting your gear. At least you usually won't start out with 1,000,000 Nuyen in gear.)

I think the streamlined (Or WoDisation?) dice roll system improves a lot in handling the rules. Instead of floating target numbers and variable dice pools, you only have one target number and all modifiers change the dice pool or the required number of "hits". I like that approach a lot, since it increases predictability and removes the headache caused for the DM and the player.

- Matrix
The Wireless Matrix 2.0 updates the game to the 21st century. I am not sure yet how much it improves handling the hacker/non-hacker divide activities, but it can only improve.

- Magic
Magic is a little more stream-lined, both in rules and in game world. The divide between shamanistic and hermetic traditions is reduced. I don't mind that, but some of my players didn't like it that much, since it's also a little bland now. That might be something we'd house rule, too, if we go back.

 

[Switchblade]

I ran a mini campaign to test the rules when it came out, ran for about 6 games, it's been a while but this is what I remember:

The basic rules are no more simple than 3e, but the matrix and magic is far simpler and dispite not knowing the rules at first the game flowed quite quickly so this was a plus.

Lethality: No where near as lethal. Properly armoured combatants will rarely take physical damage as the armour shifts it to stun if they take anything at all against most foes. As there are hard dice caps on stats and skills and the way hits works even the best shot in the world is unlikely to take down someone using a pistol. There is no longer rules for permenant injury/organ failure etc so Deadly wounds are far less of a consequence. The healling time is stupidly fast and costs are cheap so taking a deadly is less scary and becomes just a minor detail.

There is no room for progression. As skills are capped at 6 (7 for one skill with a merit) you can start as skilled as you are EVER going to be. I don't think anyone even bothered to spend their Karma. While starting money has dropped so have costs so you still start out pretty tooled up, though fortunately not so much as a 3e 1 million nuyen street sam but when there is no skill progression who cares?

Magic.
As the Arch Chancelor said - bland. Simplified but far less interesting, even with the magic book.

Matrix.
Far less interesting. Simpler but achieves less and doesn't actually intergrate that much better.

Rigging
See matrix.

Generally we found that all the PC's were technically (a) the world best in their chosen spheres and (b) due to the skill caps and hits system unable to do even that very well.

I think one player quite liked the system and didn't mind either 3 or 4ed and the other 3 of us greatly prefered 3ed.

 

[Switchblade]

...
and I like what I see - info on what runners actually DO, a list of 2070s lingo, some harsh language that actually FITS the setting (I like curse words, I must admit), and an interesting section on the sex trade, drugs, and all those other things we know runners did, but which FASA never had the guts to truly dwell on (Besides B-T-L).
...

The curse words are nothing new, most go back to 2e and the Ortez was in 3e as the language was "rediscoverd". I think from Year of the Comet but not too sure.

FASA did dwell on all of that and again it is nothing new, the sex trade, drugs etc are again, all from 3e as well as organisations such as Tantamarous (sp?) doing things like organ legging and foetus farming. (Kidnapping girls, inceminating them then ... pretty grim) Things like the smugglers havens book, man and machine threats 2 etc. There was a wealth of information on the non-corperate side of the game (piracty, underworld organised crime, smuggling) which hasn't been updated to 4e yet AFAIK. FASA did entire sourcebooks on this side of the game.

 

[Qualidar]

I've been in 5 or 6 con games over the last year or so. My previous Shadowrun experiences were all 1e – which we played a lot – so I can't do the 3e comparison. I found it much easier to deal with than the old days. They seemed to address a lot of the problems I remembered, the worst of which was the boosted street sams and magicians go 3 times before anyone else blinks. We didn't really deal with the matrix or rigging in any of the adventures I was in, so I've go no feedback on that. Reading through those sections, it seemed that they were concentrating on making it integrate better at the able. I know in the old days nobody enjoyed a matrix run.

I think they took a step away from some of the sacred cows of the Shadowrun rules, and that's been a turn-off for a lot of people. As someone not invested in those rules, I found the new version to be a fun game, and an improvement over the old days.

 

[Wik]

The curse words are nothing new, most go back to 2e and the Ortez was in 3e as the language was "rediscoverd". I think from Year of the Comet but not too sure.

FASA did dwell on all of that and again it is nothing new, the sex trade, drugs etc are again, all from 3e as well as organisations such as Tantamarous (sp?) doing things like organ legging and foetus farming. (Kidnapping girls, inceminating them then ... pretty grim) Things like the smugglers havens book, man and machine threats 2 etc. There was a wealth of information on the non-corperate side of the game (piracty, underworld organised crime, smuggling) which hasn't been updated to 4e yet AFAIK. FASA did entire sourcebooks on this side of the game.

I meant in terms of the "core book". Both 2e and 3e really just sort of hinted around at that, and as for the dirty language.... I think the only "bad word" I ever saw in 3e was Ass, and I think that's not even in 2e's core book. AS for the supplements... I don't remember anything about sex trade or real drug use (beyond BTL) in any 2e supplement. I never owned a 3e supplement, though.

Mind you, the last time I played 2e was a good ten, fifteen years ago now, so you're probably right on this one, and I'm just looking at the game through rose-coloured lenses.

 

[Wik]

I've been in 5 or 6 con games over the last year or so. My previous Shadowrun experiences were all 1e – which we played a lot – so I can't do the 3e comparison. I found it much easier to deal with than the old days. They seemed to address a lot of the problems I remembered, the worst of which was the boosted street sams and magicians go 3 times before anyone else blinks. We didn't really deal with the matrix or rigging in any of the adventures I was in, so I've go no feedback on that. Reading through those sections, it seemed that they were concentrating on making it integrate better at the able. I know in the old days nobody enjoyed a matrix run.

I think they took a step away from some of the sacred cows of the Shadowrun rules, and that's been a turn-off for a lot of people. As someone not invested in those rules, I found the new version to be a fun game, and an improvement over the old days.

Thanks for this. I only really played 2e - I couldn't really work up the nerve to try 3e. The multi-action street sam problem always bothered me, though our group had no problem with the matrix rules, since we sort of always assumed the decker had to be with the group when breaking in anyways. So we just sort of did one round with the decker, and one round with everyone else.

There is no room for progression. As skills are capped at 6 (7 for one skill with a merit) you can start as skilled as you are EVER going to be. I don't think anyone even bothered to spend their Karma. While starting money has dropped so have costs so you still start out pretty tooled up, though fortunately not so much as a 3e 1 million nuyen street sam but when there is no skill progression who cares?

Yikes. That doesn't sound good. But, I suppose it can be house-ruled away.

 

[Cergorach]

The slang was in every edition of SR, I just plucked 1E from it's place, on page 161 there is a limited selection of slang words "Breeder" ;-)

Personally I found 3E rules wise an improvement, but graphically it was the start of the end. I find 4E graphically very un-SR. i love anime, but SR is the wrong game for anime like illustrations, Exalted is a perfect game for that. Rules wise I think that 4E hasn't improved that much, it became rather bland.

Although the wireless aspect of the update might seem interesting, I find it almost completely useless. While wireless might become more common for commercial applications, secure locations (such as runners would infiltrate) would NOT use wireless for security reasons. I'm a computer 'nerd', and my home network is wireless capable, I disabled it though (even now considering physically removing all the wireless cards from the routers/laptops). There are already far to many folks making a sport of hacking into wireless networks. I worked at a bank, no wireless connections for security reasons, we're not unique. A street samurai that would consider using a smart link that could be hi-jacked is either very stupid or has a dead wish. If you have a wireless system in your body, you make sure it's not connected to anything else if you expect to get into combat. If someone could get control of your cyberspurs they could kill you in your sleep (when your hand is near your head, extend cyber spurs *grins evily*).

To be honest, the newer 4E SR stuff doesn't have the attraction the older SR had. I think they tried to hard to update and change SR to better work with newer inventions. SR had an apocalyptic event that set back technology many years, it worked for the setting, why change that?

Btw. SR isn't made by WizKids, they own the propert, but license it out.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Thanks for this. I only really played 2e - I couldn't really work up the nerve to try 3e. The multi-action street sam problem always bothered me, though our group had no problem with the matrix rules, since we sort of always assumed the decker had to be with the group when breaking in anyways. So we just sort of did one round with the decker, and one round with everyone else.

Yikes. That doesn't sound good. But, I suppose it can be house-ruled away.

My suggestion might be to reduce the points you can spend on attributes and reduce the starting values, (maybe to a range 4-5 instead of 5-7 as possible maximums).
This makes it cheaper to advance after character creation, and you still have room at the top.

Then, I'd count 4s as "hits", too. (so each dice has a 50 % chance to generate a hit). This increases the distinction between different skill and attribute levels, and improves the reliability even for lower skill ratings.

Furthermore, whenever you have to roll more then 6 dice, subtract 2 dice and add one automatic hit until you are at 6 or less dice. This is to avoid rolling buckets of dice.

SR isn't made by WizKids, they own the propert, but license it out.

If I am not mistaken, FanPro (Fantasy Productions) from Germany has the license and creates most of the rules material. (FanPro is also resposible for the German equivalent to D&D - Das Schwarze Auge)