Shadows and Improved Natural Attack

[pawsplay]

The Dread Wraith seems to suggest otherwise.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The Dread Wraith seems to suggest otherwise.

No it doesn't. The dread wraith does regular damage plus Con drain. The INA applies to the regular damage, not to the Con drain. The Con drain is special ability, not a natural weapon.

 

[pawsplay]

How do you know? My impression is actually that Con drain is not size-based, and if it's higher, it's because INA affected both the damage and the Con drain.

 

[Cedric]

The Dread Wraith seems to suggest otherwise.

If you look at my example, the Shadow does d6 str dmg, the greater shadow does d8 str dmg. Both creatures are size "medium".

The Dread Wraith isn't draining d8 con (instead of d6) because it's "Large" ...it drains more Con because it has a higher CR and is a tougher monster.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Dread Wraith seems to suggest otherwise.

I think Cedric's point is that while the Dread Wraith's INA feat has increased the hit point damage dealt by its incorporeal touch attack, it's not conclusive as to whether the feat has increased its Con drain from 1d6 to 1d8.

The Greater Shadow's Str drain is better than the Shadow's Str drain without a feat. The Greater Shadow is not simply a Shadow, advanced a few hit dice; it is a separate creature. The Greater Shadow's Str drain is 1d8 because it's 1d8, not because the Shadow's is 1d6 and changes have been applied.

We know that the Wraith is a Medium undead, dealing 1d4 damage +1d6 Con drain with a touch. We know that the Dread Wraith is a Large undead, dealing 2d6 damage + 1d8 Con drain with an INA touch.

If we had simply advanced the Wraith to Large, its 1d4 damage would increase to 1d6; INA would make this 1d8. But the Dread Wraith's touch deals 2d6; without INA, the base damage would have been 1d8. So again, we can see that the Dread Wraith is not just an advanced Wraith, but a different creature. And we have no way of knowing if the Dread Wraith's Con drain without INA would be 1d6, or remain at 1d8; we don't know if INA has increased it at all, or had no effect.

-Hyp.

 

[starwed]

No it doesn't. The dread wraith does regular damage plus Con drain. The INA applies to the regular damage, not to the Con drain. The Con drain is special ability, not a natural weapon.

The point is that it does argue for incorporeal touch attack counting as a natural attack. (Especially since Improved Natural Attack(incorporeal touch attack) is specified as one of the dread wraith's feats.)

I agree with the rest though: The wraith's damage is quite differant from the shadow's. The wraith's allows a fortitude save against it, and it is on top of normal damage. The rules don't explicitly spell it out, but I think it is a reasonable conclusion that the drain is an additional affect on top of the base damage.

A shadow's base damage is strength damage, however. That makes it a bit differant.

 

[pawsplay]

If we had simply advanced the Wraith to Large, its 1d4 damage would increase to 1d6; INA would make this 1d8. But the Dread Wraith's touch deals 2d6; without INA, the base damage would have been 1d8. So again, we can see that the Dread Wraith is not just an advanced Wraith, but a different creature. And we have no way of knowing if the Dread Wraith's Con drain without INA would be 1d6, or remain at 1d8; we don't know if INA has increased it at all, or had no effect.

My answer started with "How do you know?" and followed with what my supposition is. So I essentially agree.

 

[Evilhalfling]

well a shadowdancers companion took the feat - sometimes I regret allowing it.
but yah just gotta figure the party is 18th lvl so why not? a solid hit and she is toast anyway.