Shake It Off vs. Dazed

[Vegepygmy]

DAZED
✦ You grant combat advantage.​

✦ You can take either a standard action, a move action, or a minor action on your turn (you can also take free actions). You can’t take immediate actions or opportunity actions.
✦ You can’t flank an enemy.​

Shake It Off Warlord Utility 2​

You convince yourself or an ally to shake off a debilitating effect.​

Encounter ✦ Martial

Minor Action Ranged 10​

Target: You or one ally​

Effect: The target makes a saving throw with a power bonus equal to your Charisma modifier.


SCENARIO: Opponent uses a power on Warlord and dazes Warlord (save ends). On Warlord's turn, he uses Shake It Off on himself and succeeds on the saving throw thus granted.

QUESTION: Is Warlord's turn now over, or does he get to take a move and a standard action? (Please cite authority for your answer.)

Edit: I apologize for the wonky appearance of this post. I don't know why it turned out like this.​

 

[weem]

His turn is over.

1/ He's dazed, he gets one action... his (a Minor Action) was to apply the ability that gives him a bonus to his save

2/ Saves happen at the end of your turn...

Page 279

When you’re under a persistent effect or condition that can be ended by a save (“save ends”), you have a chance to escape the effect each round at the end of your turn....
...End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end.

---edit---

The cool thing about that when using on yourself is the bonus... but on someone else, they get to roll their save right then... so if the Wizard was dazed, the Warlord could use this on the Wizard allowing him to roll now (before his turn) so that if he (the Wiz) does save, he gets all of his actions when his turn comes around.

 

[GorTeX]

I disagree. Since the save is during the Warlord's turn, not at the end of his turn, once he is undazed, he is no longer limited by the daze to one action.

note that the power allows to make a save NOW, with a bonus, not at the end of your turn...

Basically, the power allows you to make a save out of the normal order and if you do make it, you are no longer dazed and can continue to act normally now.

 

[Dalzig]

Several (many?) people believe and play the exact opposite of weem. Which group is more correct has yet to be concretely decided.

 

[weem]

I disagree. Since the save is during the Warlord's turn, not at the end of his turn, once he is undazed, he is no longer limited by the daze to one action.

Ok, I could see that still not sure I agree, but I can see where you are coming from.

I should have stated my disclaimer (which states my answers are based on my initial reaction to reading a rule post and/or how I rule on them). I should make it part of my sig really.

Tough one. I mean "Since the save is during the Warlord's turn..." but, all saves are during your turn unless provided an opportunity when it is not your turn (Warlord to the Wizard for example).

Interesting. This is one of the cases where it has not come up for me, but my first impression remains the same... but like I said, I can see where you are coming from. I could be entirely wrong, but that's how I would rule it at this minute.

Several (many?) people believe and play the exact opposite of weem. Which group is more correct has yet to be concretely decided.

Ahh so this has come up before - interesting

 

[Mouseferatu]

When a power gives a character the opportunity to make a save, that save happens immediately. It does not follow the normal rules for only occurring at the end of the turn. This is the case whether the power that grants the save comes from the same character making the save or someone else.

Let me clarify. Cleric Bob and Fighter Joe are part of the same party. On Bob's turn, he utters a prayer that gives Joe an immediate save against poison. It doesn't suddenly become the end of Joe's turn, even though he rolled a save; it's still the middle of Bob's, because the saving throw was granted by a power, rather than being a "normal" save.

Now, what if Cleric Bob had used the power on himself? Does it suddenly jump to the end of his turn? Why would it? It's the exact same power, with the exact same effect; he simply happened to choose himself as the target. It's still a saving throw granted by a power, not a normal, end-of-the-round save.

 

[Bigwilly]

Warlord is dazed so only gets one action on his turn.
Warlord's turn comes up.
Warlord uses his one action to Shake it off, leaving him with no more actions (except free ones) this turn.
Warlord makes the save. Yay! However, as far as I remember Shake it off does not grant additional actions, so Warlord still has no more actions left this turn.
Warlord's turn ends.

Might not be RAW but that's how I'd rule it. Anything else smells of cheese. My current default action for anything that smells cheesy in 4e is a quick knee to the groin.

 

[Bagpuss]

Technically RAW I would go with ween and Bigwilly.

Effects are applied at the start of your turn (see page 268).

Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn.

So Dazed is in effect at the start of your turn.

Also note You can’t take any actions at the start of your turn.

Dazed limits your actions to one, before you can use Shake it Off.

Shake it Off is therefore your only action for the turn.

Imagine if it was Ongoing Damage rather than Dazed he used Shake it Off against? He would still have taken the damage.

Still I'd probably play it completely the opposite way since Warlord's suffer enough with their powers.

 

[Hazard_53188]

Technically RAW I would go with ween and Bigwilly.

Effects are applied at the start of your turn (see page 268).

Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn.

So Dazed is in effect at the start of your turn.

Also note You can’t take any actions at the start of your turn.

Dazed limits your actions to one, before you can use Shake it Off.

Shake it Off is therefore your only action for the turn.

I can understand this. But let's consider something other than dazed. How about immobilized? The Warlords turn comes up and he is immobilized. He spends his minor action and used Shake it Off and succeeds at his saving through. It seems silly that he couldn't then use his move action to actually move. Although that could certainly be correct based on RAW.

Imagine if it was Ongoing Damage rather than Dazed he used Shake it Off against? He would still have taken the damage.

Now this I completely agree with. Damage is clearly first before any actions can be spent.

Still I'd probably play it completely the opposite way since Warlord's suffer enough with their powers.

Also agreed.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Warlord is dazed so only gets one action on his turn.
Warlord's turn comes up.
Warlord uses his one action to Shake it off, leaving him with no more actions (except free ones) this turn.
Warlord makes the save. Yay! However, as far as I remember Shake it off does not grant additional actions, so Warlord still has no more actions left this turn.

Why not? It's still his turn, and he is no longer dazed. If he was slowed instead of dazed at the start of his turn, and he used Shake It Off to make the save as his first action, then moved, would you say his speed is still only 2 because he was slowed at the start of his turn?

Edit: D'oh! Ninja'ed by Hazard 53188!

Might not be RAW but that's how I'd rule it. Anything else smells of cheese.

I don't see why. Under your ruling, the Warlord's power operates differently on everyone else but him (in that if the Warlord uses it as soon as possible on another character, and that character makes his save, the character never suffers any actual effect from being dazed, but if he uses it as soon as possible on himself, and makes his save, he still suffers the full effect of being dazed). Shake It Off doesn't look to me like one of those powers that is intended to be less effective when used on the warlord himself, so it doesn't seem at all cheesy to me to rule that it isn't less effective when used on the warlord himself.