Shake It Off vs. Dazed

[weem]

Here is where I am stuck (just gonna spew this out as I found a little bit of time real quick)...

As mentioned a few times, there are 3 parts to your turn.

1/ Start of Your Turn
2/ Actions on Your Turn
3/ End of Your Turn

We'll call these Acts 1, 2 and 3.

Your progress from Act 1 to Act 2 and finally to Act 3 during your turn.

There is no backwards movement, and in fact you can do "no actions" in Act 1 or Act 3.

Daze "occurs" at the Start of Your Turn, Act 1.

To me, "occurs" means it happens then. It is not occuring during Act 2, it already happened in Act 1. Like ongoing damage and regeneration, they are applied AND resolved in Act 1 - they begin and end their turn in other words.

When Daze is applied (Act 1), its effect is prevention of more than one action during Act 2. Like ongoing damage that has been taken, this is an effect that has happened already - it is not reversable.

Shake it Off allows the warlord or others to roll a save with a bonus.

--- For the Warlord, it occurs in Act 2.

--- For Others, it occurs in Act 0 (zero) before Act 1 of their next turn. Before the Daze would, in effect, get its chance to "occur". Other players are not moving backwards to stop an effect, but rather the warlord is preventing it from even getting to occur at all by killing it in Act 0.

When the warlord saves in Act 2 thanks to an ability, it does not (to me) mean you get to go undo an action that occured during Act 1 (again, could he not then go back and undo ongoing damage? take back what was taken from him already?). Rather, it means that you are getting to roll a save in round 2 in addition to round 3 - so 2 saves, which is great and one of them is with a bonus! even better. But you benefit from saves on your next turn, not the current one.

Everything in the book says (multiple times in fact) that saves occur at the end of the turn. Even if we assume (and we are) that this save for the warlord occurs during his actions turn (Act 2), nothing anywhere contradicts that the BENEFITS of a save (reasing conditions) occur on your NEXT turn (when you are suddenly free of a condition(S)).

To word it another way... the book says saves happen at the end of your turn... this equates to saying that the save you make in Act 3 (turn 1) doesn't do anything until Act 1 (turn 2) when it efectively 'destroys' the effect you were saving against. We invision it immediately removing the effect, but logically that would require moving backwards to Act 1... instead, it waits till Act 1 of the next turn and removes it.

With that said, I just don't see why in this case it moves back and stops what has already occured.


Anyway, it's not pretty and I don't expect to change any minds (not trying to) - that's just where I am coming from at the moment, which could change. I'm not claiming to be right, or that you are wrong - I enjoy the discussion and it's all positive right

 

[keterys]

... Double posting madness.

 

[keterys]

Like ongoing damage that has been taken, this is an effect that has happened already - it is not reversable.

Sure... but what does daze actually do? It places a limit on the actions you can take. It doesn't remove actions - for it to do so, it would say something like 'You only receive a standard action on your turn'. If it did so, however, my example of taking a move action and getting dazed by the OA would no longer remove your remaining actions, because you already received them at the start of the turn. That is, fwiw, the effective proof that you're wrong.

For Others, it occurs in Act 0 (zero) before Act 1 of their next turn.

I don't understand this part. It occurs the second the power is used - not during any special phase. In fact, in a hypothetical situation the warlord could ready an action to give a save to anyone who starts their turn while dazed... and that'd work.

With that said, I just don't see why in this case it moves back and stops what has already occured.

It doesn't change what's already occurred - if the warlord was attacked, he gave combat advantage. If someone readied an action to move away at the start of his turn, he was dazed and took no OA, etc.

Much like if he'd been immobilized at the start of his turn and wanted to move. He couldn't. He got the save. Now he can. All set.

 

[weem]

For Others, it occurs in Act 0 (zero) before Act 1 of their next turn.

This... makes no sense at all. It occurs the second the power is used.

Right... which is before their turn... which, using my example, is before "Act 1"... which I labeled "Act 0". I thought it was pretty straight forward, but maybe not.

 

[keterys]

Right... which is before their turn... which, using my example, is before "Act 1"... which I labeled "Act 0".

Yeah... but what if the warlord readies an action to give the save after the party member starts their turn?

 

[Vegepygmy]

Daze "occurs" at the Start of Your Turn, Act 1.

Does it? I mean, I would agree that it is "in effect" during Act 1, but as I pointed out, that doesn't matter because you can't (normally) take any actions during Act 1 anyway.

But I don't think it "occurs" in Act 1 at all. Page 268 states that you "Deal with any other effects that occur at the start of your turn" during Act 1, but where does it say that Dazed is one of those effects (like ongoing damage) "that occur at the start of your turn?"

More importantly, as others have pointed out, if all effects "occur" in Act 1, then an Immobilized warlord remains unable to move even though he's no longer Immobilized, a Blinded warlord remains unable to see even though he's no longer Blinded, etc. That just doesn't compute.

Anyway, it's not pretty and I don't expect to change any minds (not trying to) - that's just where I am coming from at the moment, which could change. I'm not claiming to be right, or that you are wrong - I enjoy the discussion and it's all positive right

Thank you for responding. I appreciate your willingness to consider other points of view.

 

[N8Ball]

Fist, I'd like to second Vege's sentiment and say thanks for such a thorough explanation of your point of view.

Daze "occurs" at the Start of Your Turn, Act 1.

To me, "occurs" means it happens then. It is not occuring during Act 2, it already happened in Act 1. Like ongoing damage and regeneration, they are applied AND resolved in Act 1 - they begin and end their turn in other words.

I think this is where our trouble starts. I don't think Daze is one of those effects that "happen" (like ongoing damage) but rather it's an effect that's either "in effect" or it's not. Our group used condition cards that the DM hands out when you get smacked with a slow or immobilize or whatever, so as long as that card is face up in front of my character it's "in effect" and as soon as I save against it I flip it over (if I'll need the card again soon ) or hand it back to the DM.

With the perspective that it's a "lightswitch effect" (that's either "on" or "off") you can see how flipping the switch to "off" (by saving) doesn't really require going backwards in the turn sequence. I agree that going back would be incorrect, but I think that suggestion was from a misunderstanding of our position.

When the warlord saves in Act 2 thanks to an ability, it does not (to me) mean you get to go undo an action that occured during Act 1 (again, could he not then go back and undo ongoing damage? take back what was taken from him already?). Rather, it means that you are getting to roll a save in round 2 in addition to round 3 - so 2 saves, which is great and one of them is with a bonus! even better. But you benefit from saves on your next turn, not the current one.

Everything in the book says (multiple times in fact) that saves occur at the end of the turn. Even if we assume (and we are) that this save for the warlord occurs during his actions turn (Act 2), nothing anywhere contradicts that the BENEFITS of a save (reasing conditions) occur on your NEXT turn (when you are suddenly free of a condition(S)).

Save's do occur at the end of your turn, but that's not the only time they *can* occur. There are plenty of prescedent for that too, and not just a Warlord using this power. Some monsters have the ability to make a save as soon as they are hit with a power (like the Hobgoblin) effectively allowing them to NEVER suffer the effets of a condition if they make that save. That would hold even if the effect were caused on their own turn via an immediate or opportunity action by one of the PCs.

As several other people have said I think it should be looked at like the slowed or immobilized condition (other "lightswitch" effects) that are no longer detrimental as soon as a save is made.

To put it another way, if Daze "occurs" in act 1, and it hangs around after the save then enemies would still have CA against you after you saved at the end of your turn!! That's no good at all. The condition (and effects) must end when the save ends it,... hence "save ends"

 

[Tony Vargas]

The way I see it, Dazed is a condition, Conditions don't have to begin or end at any given point, an enemy can inflict a condition when it's not your turn, and ally can remove it when it's not your turn, it can be incurred or removed at various points durring your turn.

When you are under the condition, it aplies, when it's done, it's /done/.

For instance, if you are slowed in the midst of your movement, you lose remaining movement in excess of 2. You weren't slowed when your turn started, and you weren't slowed when you started moving, but you're slowed, /now/. By the same logic, I'd presume, if you moved a square into a zone that somehow removed the slowed condition, you'd be able to move the rest of your normal movement in the same action, since you're no longer slowed.

Daze should work the same way, if you take an action, and, as a result, become Dazed, you lose the rest of your actions that round; conversely, if you take your one action while dazed and it results in the removal of the dazed condition, you have your remaining actions restored.

Normally, when you're Dazed (save ends), you would, indeed, start your turn dazed, be dazed durring your action, and only have a shot at removing the condition at the end of your turn, when you would no longer be able to take actions. Powers like Shake it Off change that - specific overriding general.

 

[weem]

Again with the forum losing my post...

I have had a chance to do a good bit of PHB searching...

This is where my big hang up began...

THE START OF YOUR TURN
-- Ongoing Damage: If you’re suffering ongoing
damage (page 278), you take the damage now.
-- Regeneration: If you have regeneration (page 293),
you regain hit points now.
-- Other Effects: Deal with any other effects that
occur at the start of your turn.
-- End Effects: Some effects end automatically at the
start of your turn.
-- No Actions: You can’t take any actions at the start
of your turn.

I was under the assumption that Daze fell under the "Other Effects" here.

With that assumption, these were effects that begin and end in the Start of Turn round like Ongoing and Regen. So when it was being said that Daze is not like those, I felt like "well, yea, they are different, but they occur at the same time - they happen at the same time and therefor are the same with regards to how they are removed" - but nothing anywhere says that. Nowhere does it say all conditions occur then, I just assumed that's where they were located and how they behaved.

Like I said, I'm just responding off the cuff without any previous research or even experience on this topic (it has never come up) so I'm just discussing it out loud as I would see it at the time.

That said, I understand where you are coming from and yes, I agree with your take on it now, absolutely.

Thanks

 

[sethromax]

Ready an Action while dazed?

If my character is dazed, and he knows that his warlord buddy will going next and loves to use his Shake it Off power. Could he take a minor action and Ready an Action with the trigger being helped by the Warlord?

Is readying and Action an Action?