Shane Hensley comments on the RPG industry

[Tsyr]

Re: Continuing This Topic Drift

The trick is not to say, "This can't be done." The trick is to find a way to make it work.

Of course, you eventualy reach the point where you have to stop and ask "What's the point?".

For example, say I wanted to do a d20 Shadowrun. Mind you, that's the last thing I'd want to do, but theoreticly.

First of all, I would need to go ogl, not true D20... actualy, I might be able to keep d20 there, I'm not sure... I've never been a student of the OGL and d20 licenses... would the classless system Red Leaf put out be legal under d20? Because shadowrun isn't a class-based system, and wouldn't really work that way. Skills are designed to be totaly seperate of what people might think you are. Your mage could be a crack shot with a pistol, for example. As good as a fighter type, maybe even better. Granted, probably only in that weapon, but there it is. But there is no effective way to represent that in D20. And I'm not talking something that would be true after taking XX levels of feats either, it should be that way from level 1 to represent the game properly.

An entire system for cybernetics would have to be thought up. A new stat would have to be introduced (At least one, actualy, possibly two)... Shadowrun is very specific on this point, and it's very, very important to the game. It's a critical balance point, preventing people from becomming total cyborgs, forcing mages to be really wary of cybernetics, and giving deckers and riggers something that they can do better than anyone else. And more than that, it figures prominently into the "setting story" too... things like cybermancy, for example, would exist without the essense scores. Nor would things like alpha through gamma wear, or the vast majority of biotech.

You would have to invent a new magic system... actualy, you could probably rip the basic system from Soverign Stone, there are some similarities, but it would still need a lot of revision.

You would need to invent several new interacting systems for dealing with decking. Decking is a major aspect of Shadowrun, and reducing it to a "do I deck in?" skill check would absolutely ruin it. New rules for making decks. Rules for making programs, running programs, loading programs, etc. Rules for headwear and otakus.

A new health/damage/armour systems would be needed to reflect the way damage works in SR... It's very lethal, and even if you survive the first shot, your wounded badly... and that impacts everything you do in some fashion. And this has to interact with the new way of handeling BAB that I alluded to above, since the game doesn't link "ability to get shot" and "ability to shoot" in some arbitrary fashion. Armour absorbs damage, it doesn't make it easier to miss you. It absorbs different amounts of damage depending on what type of round you were hit with, where you were hit, etc. Rules for armour layering.

And more. Much more. Rules for point-buy gun creation. Rules for knowledgesoft chips. Rules for rigging, and building rigging vehicals. Rules for astral traval. And still more.

Yes, you could do it.

But if you didn't do all of that, you wouldn't have Shadowrun. You would have a generic cyberpunk game with a different rule system. Shadowrun is as popular as it is mostly BECAUSE if it's rule system.

But like I said, yes, you could do it.

But why? I mean, after you go to all that work, what's the point? You still darn near have to learn a new system, so why not just play Shadowrun? Really, it doesn't take long to learn to use a dice pool. Many, many games use them. Believe it or not, one system is not ideal for everything, no more than one car is ideal for everyone, or one computer, or one hobby.

 

[Tsyr]

It's no wonder d20 products outsell the others, given the same amount of design and presentation quality as the non-d20 products. I'm not saying that "Godlike" or "Nobilis" doesn't sell, but I bet that if there had been excellent implementations of such games (Note that I don't know if such a thing is even possible) as d20 games, they'd sell an order of magnitude better, simply because a potential buyer isn't thinking to himself/herself "Would this be a hard sell for my gaming group?". For this reason and this reason alone, I'd consider buying Spycraft, but not Nobilis. I'd consider "Mutants and Masterminds", but not "Godlike", and definitely not "SAS d20", which at this point everyone has agreed is the equivalent of a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Just as an aside, Nobilis couldn't work as a D20 game any more than Amber could... both are diceless systems

 

[2WS-Steve]

Just as an aside, Nobilis couldn't work as a D20 game any more than Amber could... both are diceless systems

Actually that's kind of funny; if we consider Nobili and Amberites as all being greater deities ala De&Dg then they would be diceless in the d20 system

 

[Geoff Watson]

Re: Re: Continuing This Topic Drift

Of course, you eventualy reach the point where you have to stop and ask "What's the point?".

For example, say I wanted to do a d20 Shadowrun. Mind you, that's the last thing I'd want to do, but theoreticly.

First of all, I would need to go ogl, not true D20... actualy, I might be able to keep d20 there, I'm not sure... I've never been a student of the OGL and d20 licenses... would the classless system Red Leaf put out be legal under d20? Because shadowrun isn't a class-based system, and wouldn't really work that way. Skills are designed to be totaly seperate of what people might think you are. Your mage could be a crack shot with a pistol, for example. As good as a fighter type, maybe even better. Granted, probably only in that weapon, but there it is. But there is no effective way to represent that in D20. And I'm not talking something that would be true after taking XX levels of feats either, it should be that way from level 1 to represent the game properly.

Shadowrun could easily be class-based (Fighting-dude, skill-dude, rigger, decker, mage, shaman, adept).

An entire system for cybernetics would have to be thought up. A new stat would have to be introduced (At least one, actualy, possibly two)... Shadowrun is very specific on this point, and it's very, very important to the game. It's a critical balance point, preventing people from becomming total cyborgs, forcing mages to be really wary of cybernetics, and giving deckers and riggers something that they can do better than anyone else. And more than that, it figures prominently into the "setting story" too... things like cybermancy, for example, would exist without the essense scores. Nor would things like alpha through gamma wear, or the vast majority of biotech.

I was think of having 'essence loss' reduce charisma (like in cyberpunk) and effectively reduce a magical characters spellcasting stat (like a reverse Spellcasting Prodigy).


You would have to invent a new magic system... actualy, you could probably rip the basic system from Soverign Stone, there are some similarities, but it would still need a lot of revision.

It depends. Since shadowrun is basically a D&D/cyberpunk crossover (heresy!), you could use the normal D&D magic system.

You would need to invent several new interacting systems for dealing with decking. Decking is a major aspect of Shadowrun, and reducing it to a "do I deck in?" skill check would absolutely ruin it.

That's a optional rule in normal Shadowrun; to save time on decking, just make one computer skill check for the entire run.

New rules for making decks. Rules for making programs, running programs, loading programs, etc. Rules for headwear and otakus.

A new health/damage/armour systems would be needed to reflect the way damage works in SR... It's very lethal, and even if you survive the first shot, your wounded badly... and that impacts everything you do in some fashion. And this has to interact with the new way of handeling BAB that I alluded to above, since the game doesn't link "ability to get shot" and "ability to shoot" in some arbitrary fashion. Armour absorbs damage, it doesn't make it easier to miss you. It absorbs different amounts of damage depending on what type of round you were hit with, where you were hit, etc. Rules for armour layering.

The combat system is different. So?

And more. Much more. Rules for point-buy gun creation. Rules for knowledgesoft chips. Rules for rigging, and building rigging vehicals. Rules for astral traval. And still more.

Yes, you could do it.

But if you didn't do all of that, you wouldn't have Shadowrun. You would have a generic cyberpunk game with a different rule system. Shadowrun is as popular as it is mostly BECAUSE if it's rule system.

I find the shadowrun system to be rather poor, actually. Totally different rules for everything, wierd dice mechanics where a +1TN penalty can make a huge difference or no difference, etc.

But like I said, yes, you could do it.

But why? I mean, after you go to all that work, what's the point? You still darn near have to learn a new system, so why not just play Shadowrun? Really, it doesn't take long to learn to use a dice pool. Many, many games use them. Believe it or not, one system is not ideal for everything, no more than one car is ideal for everyone, or one computer, or one hobby.

I'd like to see a d20 Shadowrun, actually. It's the setting that really matters, not the rules. You don't have to convert everything so it works exactly as the Shadowrun rules work.

Geoff.

 

[Tsyr]

Shadowrun could easily be class-based (Fighting-dude, skill-dude, rigger, decker, mage, shaman, adept).

See, I would disagree with that. Just because you can break a concept down a root concept doesn't make it "classable"... For example, with your idea, without redefining what a class means (IE, BAB, REF save, etc), how would you make a mage that, at first level, was both a better shot than a fighter with a heavy pistol, and could dodge better? Really, the existing D20 class system isn't set up to handle classes that deviate from a fairly narrow sterotype. Yes, you can multiclass, but lets be honest... multi class characters loose a lot to gain a little, as a rule, and it still wouldn't let a mage consistantly (IE, for all d20 levels) be a better shot with a pistol than a fighter. The fighter would be better by virtue of BAB and the extra attacks that grants, etc.

I was think of having 'essence loss' reduce charisma (like in cyberpunk) and effectively reduce a magical characters spellcasting stat (like a reverse Spellcasting Prodigy).

It's not a bad way of handeling essense I suppose... but charisma isn't a decimal point. Essense reduces by decimal points. Magic doesn't, no, but essense does. Granted, in game play terms, an essense of 3.6 and 3 are the same thing, basicly, but the decimal keeps track of little bits... really important when dealing with the advanced cyberwear, that is somtimes only worth .1 essense.

It depends. Since shadowrun is basically a D&D/cyberpunk crossover (heresy!), you could use the normal D&D magic system.

Mmmm... to each their own, I suppose. But they don't function the same. Again, I think you would be loosing something major to convert it to vancian magic. Just like I think WoT lost something by still using a "slots per day" system, even if they renamed it to "weaves per day". You might be happy with it, I prefer things to try to stick to the source as close as possible. Personal difference.

That's a optional rule in normal Shadowrun; to save time on decking, just make one computer skill check for the entire run.

Yes, but if you left it out on virtue of it being an optional rule, you would have just left out a very... um, how shall I phrase this... not "key" exactly, but similar... "central"? maybe... Anyhow, a rather big part of shadowrun, IMHO.

The combat system is different. So?

...so? So, the combat system is actualy probably my single favorite part OF Shadowrun. Much like the combat system in Riddle of Steel is my favorite part of that game, and for very similar reasons. (Riddle of Steel is sorta the fantasy eqiv of the shadowrun combat system). It's not something that could be tossed in favor of BAB and AC without impacting the flavor of the game. And if you DO drop BAB and AC instead, your back to reinventing the system your trying to reinvent the game to fit into.

I find the shadowrun system to be rather poor, actually. Totally different rules for everything, wierd dice mechanics where a +1TN penalty can make a huge difference or no difference, etc.

What you find poor I find... almost refreshing, in a way. Because I've never really felt that one system CAN handle EVERYTHING equaly well. Unless you strip it down to, say, the basics that Talislanta uses... one system for everything, but that one system doesn't work very well for anything.

I'd like to see a d20 Shadowrun, actually. It's the setting that really matters, not the rules. You don't have to convert everything so it works exactly as the Shadowrun rules work.

Mmm, we are going to have to disagree there. I think the rules in Shadowrun are at LEAST as important as the setting, and personaly I think they are probably moreso. Really, the setting isn't THAT special... as you say, it's a DnD and Cyberpunk thrown in a blender. I'm sure D20 modern will have all the rules you would need to play that. For myself, I think the shadowrun SYSTEM is special, with or without the setting, and stripping the system from Shadowrun, like stripping the Storyteller system from Exalted, leaves you with the name and idea... Not the original game, just something trying to be what it's not.

 

[malladin]

Perspective from the little guy

Hi, Ben here from Malladin's Gate Press.

Just thought it might be nice to add a few of my own perspective, from the point of view of a new, small d20 publisher.

Malladin's Gate are a brand new company. We've been up and running for less than a month and have only one product available on PDF through RPGNow (sorry if that sounded too much like a plug, but I'm trying to give a bit of background as most of you probably won't know who I am). Needless to say we are what Shane described as 'lower tier' publishers who are just writing games in our spare time.

Hmm, where to start, this thread has become a bit all-encompassing...

The d20 system has given us a start that we might never have gotten before OGL. Along with RPG Now we were able to set up for very small start up costs (that have already been more than recouped through sales of our first book). Not that we're ever going to be able to make masses out of it, but we'll hopefully get to keep writing. I think that its because of this that d20 will stick around for a good while yet. Small 'publishers' like our selves can get our material out without having to find a publisher.

We started out writing game material a few years ago now and have been touting our own game (non d20) around pulishers. When this failed we tried to break in to the d20 market. Again we had to take rejection from many publishers before we found that we could actually produce and sell PDF games ourselves. Given the imprint deals that are going around it seemed like our best avenue to get oursleves properly published (whether or not this will hapen remains to be seen). This way we don't have to spend money we don't have and can write our best ideas rather than trying to squeeze them into an existing system.

As for the relative value of d20 over other systems, I like both. I personally grew up on basic D&D (not AD&D, the basic, expert, companion and masters boxed sets with the great Elmore art on the front), When 2nd edition came out we switched to it (as basic D&D seemed to be dying out at the time). However, this all occurred before I went away to University. There I was eductaed in numerous other game systems that I had previously been unaware of. This led me to completely reject AD&D (2e) and I spent most of my time slagging it off and playing a variety of other systems, such as White Wolf, GURPS, Amber, Live Roleplaying games, and many others (including some unpublished ones). The reasons for not liking D&D at this time were due to the lack flexibility for me as a GM and as a player when compared with other systems (IMO, obviously). When 3E came out I didn't bother with it. It was only when friends I knew who had similar opinions of older D&D told me that it was worth a look that I gave it a go. Now I love it. Its the only game I play regularly. Is it better than other games? Probably not, but many of the games I was into in the 90s seem to be running rapidly out of steam (Vampire, Deadlands). Is it any worse? I don't think so. To a large extent there's not much thats very different. Like all other roleplaying systems it has stats and skills that add together and you compare it with the result of a dice roll and a rough idea of the difficulty of the task undertaken. On top of that there's a combat system that involves adding an action ordering an targetting system on top of the basic resolution system. Neither is this new or bad (IMO).

I think the recent demise of other systems is more to do with the way in which people like PEG and WW have flogged their old ideas to death and left all but their hard-core without anything they really want to play. Okay, with d20 system I can produce a 'Splat' book that is largely rules and little flavour and no game background. Speaking as a GM, I want to make my own game worlds up, so why would I bother with someone else's world?

 

[DaemonBolo]

d20 market and the feat system

Great discussion!

I have really enjoyed this thread. It has been more than a little informative. I have a few comments of my own to make. First of all, I think "glut" does apply to the d20 publishers at the moment. Personally, I bought tons of material in the first year and a half of the d20 trend; however, it soon started to override my senses. I just could not keep up with all the different products.

At one time, I used EnWorld to help me decide what d20 products and materials I wanted. Now I ignore those news sections. I have a few lines that I buy (Fantasy Flight, Sword and Sorcery, Mongoose and Green Ronin), but I tend to ignore other publishers, although I will be buying a lot from a new company called Dark Faerie Productions if they ever make it to print. For me, too many books are coming out to even consider buying a tenth of them.

As for game retailers, all the hobby shops in my area have scaled back. They only stock the popular d20 settings and carry no new publishers. In fact, most have stopped carrying White Wolf! They'll special order for you, but they will not stock it any longer. This may be a bit sad, but nothing can be done about it. Most game stores have limited space.

As for the d20 system, I have a feeling that we will see an even more radical concept in the next few years: The feat system. Instead of classes, a set of basic feats will be presented. Take the Paladin for example, Divine Grace and Aura of Courage would end up as feats. Someone who wanted to play a Paladin would take those feats (of course, feats would be tailored for specific alignments etc.)

This would do away will the need for classes set in stone and prestige classes in general. Like the Epic Level Handbook, a "class" would get a certain numbers of feats. In this manner, a PC could really be different. The need for prestige classes would die as well. Want a PrCs abilities? Take a feat chain.

Just some thoughts.

Dave

 

[Geoff Watson]

See, I would disagree with that. Just because you can break a concept down a root concept doesn't make it "classable"... For example, with your idea, without redefining what a class means (IE, BAB, REF save, etc), how would you make a mage that, at first level, was both a better shot than a fighter with a heavy pistol, and could dodge better? Really, the existing D20 class system isn't set up to handle classes that deviate from a fairly narrow sterotype. Yes, you can multiclass, but lets be honest... multi class characters loose a lot to gain a little, as a rule, and it still wouldn't let a mage consistantly (IE, for all d20 levels) be a better shot with a pistol than a fighter. The fighter would be better by virtue of BAB and the extra attacks that grants, etc.

If the mage was a better fighter than the fighter, and had magic ability, then you need to look at class balance. The only way for a mage to be a better fighter than the fighter is for the fighter to really screw up when creating his character.
If the mage really wants to spend all his karma/XP on being better at fighting, he'd be multiclassing to fighter. Starting SR characters would be higher than 1st level anyway.

It's not a bad way of handeling essense I suppose... but charisma isn't a decimal point. Essense reduces by decimal points. Magic doesn't, no, but essense does. Granted, in game play terms, an essense of 3.6 and 3 are the same thing, basicly, but the decimal keeps track of little bits... really important when dealing with the advanced cyberwear, that is somtimes only worth .1 essense.

You'd keep track of fractions as in SR, as you said, it 3.6 essense or 3 essense makes no difference.

Mmmm... to each their own, I suppose. But they don't function the same. Again, I think you would be loosing something major to convert it to vancian magic. Just like I think WoT lost something by still using a "slots per day" system, even if they renamed it to "weaves per day". You might be happy with it, I prefer things to try to stick to the source as close as possible. Personal difference.
You could work out a 'save or take subdual damage' system.

Yes, but if you left it out on virtue of it being an optional rule, you would have just left out a very... um, how shall I phrase this... not "key" exactly, but similar... "central"? maybe... Anyhow, a rather big part of shadowrun, IMHO.
Sorry, I don't know the decking system. I didn't bother to read it as I've never played a decker and it's a whole new system to try to understand.

...so? So, the combat system is actualy probably my single favorite part OF Shadowrun. Much like the combat system in Riddle of Steel is my favorite part of that game, and for very similar reasons. (Riddle of Steel is sorta the fantasy eqiv of the shadowrun combat system). It's not something that could be tossed in favor of BAB and AC without impacting the flavor of the game. And if you DO drop BAB and AC instead, your back to reinventing the system your trying to reinvent the game to fit into.
I don't like it much. It has some good points, but lots of bad points as well.

What you find poor I find... almost refreshing, in a way. Because I've never really felt that one system CAN handle EVERYTHING equaly well. Unless you strip it down to, say, the basics that Talislanta uses... one system for everything, but that one system doesn't work very well for anything.

Some games have systems that work for everything.

Mmm, we are going to have to disagree there. I think the rules in Shadowrun are at LEAST as important as the setting, and personaly I think they are probably moreso. Really, the setting isn't THAT special... as you say, it's a DnD and Cyberpunk thrown in a blender. I'm sure D20 modern will have all the rules you would need to play that. For myself, I think the shadowrun SYSTEM is special, with or without the setting, and stripping the system from Shadowrun, like stripping the Storyteller system from Exalted, leaves you with the name and idea... Not the original game, just something trying to be what it's not.

I agree that we'll disagree.

Geoff.

 

[Henry]

Um... i don't know, but maybe because they might have a MONTETARY INCENTIVE to do so knowing that investing in playtesting will show up in future sales through the credibility of the company.

Bringing all this useless corporate knowledge to bear, but the term "monetary incentive" is a slight misnomer, unless the money to be gained is extremely substantial. In RPG design, this is not the case. As a rule rather than an exception, money is a hygenic (upkeep) factor, and without it motivation suffers; however, it is not a consistent motivator in and of itself. Far more important factors include recognition and job satisfaction.

Don't believe me? Check most management and business admin training courses. Strange as it sounds, money (however attractive) will not cause an employee or contractor to be more diligent with a long-term project.

 

[heirodule]

Actually that's kind of funny; if we consider Nobili and Amberites as all being greater deities ala De&Dg then they would be diceless in the d20 system

Having just played Nobilis for the first time this raises an interesting question for d20. D20 games aren't supposed to contain "charcater creation" rules.

What about a nobilis d20 game where you create any d20 charcater you want using the d20 rules, but then, when enNobled, you basicly include all the rules of Nobilis as written. The game woudln't contain "character creation" rules as such, but the charcater you PLAY would be done with the additional layer of noblilis rules and it would be diceless.

And then Nobilis could use the d20 marketing system.

Or a d20 "dreampark" type game, where you need the PHB to make your "real-life" persona, but then all other kinds of "game figure" "making" rules could be included for running your d20PC in the dreampark sub-games.

Would that work in the license? Does it mean there can be NO d20 dreampark genere game?