Shapechange and templates

[Hereticus]

I haven't seen any rules on this, so my group has been using the following 'house interpretation'.

When a high-level arcane caster casts Shapechange, they can assume whatever shape they wish at the stated HD limit. The HD or LA of the new shape have no effect on the caster's level or HD.

However when a template is added to the newly assumed shape, we ruled that the LA is deducted from the caster's level after the spell has been cast while the template is used.

If a 20th level caster wanted to become a titan vampire, he would first become a 20 HD titan. Then when he assumed the vampire template (LA+8), he would become a 12 HD titan. Since titans must be at least 20 HD, he would instead have to become a 12 HD hill giant titan. 12th level is not sufficient to cast the shapechange spell, but it had already been cast.

How have others interpreted this rule?

 

[Ahnehnois]

That's a pretty nice house rule.

I (and many others) simply deal with this problem by banning Shapechange.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't recall it ever being suggested at all that you can Shapechange into templated creatures. I'm pretty sure polymorph spells don't allow you to turn into any being remotely "unique."

 

[Hereticus]

I don't recall it ever being suggested at all that you can Shapechange into templated creatures. I'm pretty sure polymorph spells don't allow you to turn into any being remotely "unique."

Using a template would not recreate a unique creature by any stretch of the imagination. Polymorph is a much lower level spell, adding a template is clearly beyond the scope of the spell. But not that of Shapechange.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moved to 3e rules discussion

 

[Herzog]

From the Main 3.5 FAQ, page 86:

Can you use​

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polymorph* to turn into a creature with a
template?​

No.​

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Polymorph is based on alter self, which clearly states
that “[Y]ou cannot take the form of any creature with a
template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type
or subtype.”
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer
specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self​

spell to adjudicate their effect (including​

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alter self, polymorph,
polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based
on the metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and​

greater metamorphosis​

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), and any other effect based on either of​

these lists.

 

[Corsair]

I would say no just because it is a headache. Shapechange is already powerful enough without allowing PCs to mix and match to get the best combination they can. As it is, it is capped based on caster level and not caster HD, so by the time they can cast it, chances are they already have a caster level 3-5 points higher than their HD.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I would say no just because it is a headache. Shapechange is already powerful enough without allowing PCs to mix and match to get the best combination they can. As it is, it is capped based on caster level and not caster HD, so by the time they can cast it, chances are they already have a caster level 3-5 points higher than their HD.

...How? +1 CL Iuon stone and +1 CL robe from MIC, but those are both really expensive (30k and 20k gold, respectively, I think). Then...maybe +1 from the Minor Shapechange reserve feat, if they took that. That's +3...don't see how you could exceed your HD much more than that. There is Create Magical Tattoo in SpC, but you actually need to be decent at craft checks to do that and it burns some gold each use.

I think it's a little much to assume a PC will have ALL of these things...

 

[Dandu]

...How? +1 CL Iuon stone and +1 CL robe from MIC, but those are both really expensive (30k and 20k gold, respectively, I think). Then...maybe +1 from the Minor Shapechange reserve feat, if they took that. That's +3...don't see how you could exceed your HD much more than that. There is Create Magical Tattoo in SpC, but you actually need to be decent at craft checks to do that and it burns some gold each use.

I think it's a little much to assume a PC will have ALL of these things...

Ways to boost CL:

Aforementioned Ioun Stone, Robe, and feat.

Ring of Arcane Might

Spell Power, Archmage

Spell Power, Spellguard of Silverymoon

Bead of Karma

Create Magic Tattoo (Eternal wand, perhaps?)

Consumptive Field

And much, much more!