Re: just wondering
Asheron said:
Yeah but what about those fighter based classes who can cast shieldspell. (f.e. bladesinger, or any other melee based class for that matter). Then the use of the shield spell gets a whole other meaning, because a character who fights in melee now gets a huge AC boost.
Do you guys think the shield's high bonus is still justified?
I'm wondering because we had a similair discussion in our group last week.
Ash
The fighter-type characters who can cast the shield spell:
Ftr/Wiz (or Sor)/Bladesinger
Ftr/Wiz
Ftr/Sor
Ftr/Wiz (or Sor)/Spellsword
That's it.
-In the case of the Ftr/Wiz, Ftr/Sor, and Bladesinger as well as low level spellswords, the arcane spell failure of heavy armors prevents them from wearing pretty much anything heavier than a chain shirt. So first, the armor class gain isn't as big as you might think.
Ftr 1/Wiz 1 with chain shirt, large shield, 14 dex, and shield spell=AC 25.
Ftr 2 with Full plate, large shield, 12 dex=AC 21.
Ftr 1/Clr 1 with fullplate, large shield, 12 dex, shield of faith=AC 23
The difference is significant but it isn't seven points.
-In addition, the arcane spell failure means that every now and then (usually 10% or 20% of the time for mithril chain shirt and chain shirt respectively) the spell fails. That leaves the shield spell user with AC 18 to the fullplate fighter's AC 21 or the fighter/cleric's AC 23.
The only way to avoid arcane spell failure is to take bladesinger levels (in which case, you're still limited to light armor) or all 10 spellsword levels (if you're willing to stick with light armor you can stop at 2 or 4). In those cases, the ability to ignore arcane spell failure is one of the balance points of the prestige classes and shouldn't be considered outside of that context.
-Finally, said character needs to take an action (usually in combat) to cast the shield spell so, even assuming the same damage output as the fullplate fighter, his opponents will get one more attack on him than on the fullplate fighter in any given combat. Since few combats seem to last more than 3 or 4 rounds, I think this is quite significant.
Now, the ftr/wiz also has several drawbacks as a fighter. First, he can only boost his AC like that a few times a day. Often this will not be an issue but sometimes (dungeon crawls, etc) it will be. Secondly, he gives up one point of BAB. This is certainly a loss that he can sustain but it is still significant--especially before level 7. The ftr/wiz also gives up a quite a few hit points (or accepts significant vulnerability in the form of a toad familiar who will never get spell resistance--pity him when he's caught in an unholy blight). In addition, the foundation of the character's defense--the shield spell--is significantly less effective if the character is flanked or surrounded. The character's tactics must reflect this vulnerability. At higher levels, the character's defense is extremely vulnerable to a dispel magic.
All of this is not to say that a fighter x/wizard or sorceror 1 is weak but I don't think that the shield spell is broken because of them (especially if you limit the availability of wands of shield).
I should mention that I've played a melee oriented fighter/wizard from level 1 to level 8 now. (Ftr 2/Wiz 6 at the moment). Due to the shield spell, his enchanted shield and mithril chain shirt, haste spells, and the protection from evil spell as well as expertise and a decent dexterity, he can have a very high armor class. Still, he has to struggle and play in a very tactically sound manner in order to compete with a real fighting class. I'd say that I've constructed the character very soundly however, I don't think he's more effective than your averagely constructed fighter/barbarian.
As for the bladesinger, they're prohibited from using shields so their AC (with the shield spell) is only a little higher than that of a fullplate and shield fighter. And the fullplate fighter didn't have to cast a spell to get it. No foe can five foot step or tumble around the fullplate fighter's armor either. And a dispel magic won't take it out (Bladesingers have a low clvl that is still vulnerable to this although not as vulnerable as fighter x/sor or wiz 1). Bladesingers are also suboptimal in terms of damage output (using a single handed weapon with d8 damage rather than a bastard sword or two handed weapon) until they get their flurry of longsword blows ability. Bladesingers also have fewer hit points than ordinary fighters or fighter/barbarians. I don't think that their ability to cast Shield unbalances them.
The Spellsword is an entirely different kettle of fish. Spellswords are designed so that they sacrifice offensive ability for defensive. No spellsword will come close to the attack bonus of a character with all fighting classes (1/1 BAB progression). Since their spellcasting progression demands that they pay attention to int or cha, spellswords will probably not equal any non-multiclassed fighter's strength either. The preponderance of sor/wiz levels required by the spellsword class mean that they won't be competitive in terms of hit points either. All this is not to say that a spellsword is weak but they trade a lot of offensive power for their defensive abilities. I think that's fairly balanced.
For reference, what I think is a pretty optimally constructed fighter/wizard at 8th and 9th level.
Sample Fighter 2/Wizard 6 (Abjuration specialist; Enchantment Prohibited) Medium Human Male; CR: 8 HD 2d10+6d4+16; HP 50. AC 17 (mithril chain shirt +1, dex) or 24 (+ shield spell), or 26 (+protection from evil), or 27 (+dodge), or 31 (+haste), or 34 (+large shield +1); Atk +8 melee (1d10+3 masterwork glaive) or (1d8+2 masterwork light flail) or +8 ranged (1d8+2 masterwork mty [+2] composite longbow); SA: Spells; SQ: Spells, familiar; Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +6; Str 14, Dex 14, con 14, Int 16 (18), Wis 10, Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Concentration +13, Spellcraft +10, etc.; Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, Expertise, Extend Spell.
Typical Spells prepared: 0-Dancing Lights x2, Detect Magic, Detect Poison; 1-Shield (x2), True Strike (or magic missile), Burning hands (or magic missile), Protection From Evil, Empty Slot; 2-Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Protection From Arrows; 3-Blink, Dispel Magic, Haste x2
Equipment: +1 mithril chain shirt, +1 cloak of resistance, 1st level pearl of power, +1 large shield, +2 headband of intellect, masterwork glaive, masterwork light flail, masterwork mighty [+2] composite longbow, dagger, spellbook, lots of scrolls and potions. A couple wands of magic missiles (clvl 1 and 3).
Sample Fighter 2/Wizard 6 (Abjuration specialist; Enchantment Prohibited)/Spellsword 1; Medium Human Male; CR: 8 HD 2d10+6d4+1d8+18; HP 57. AC 18 (mithril chain shirt +2, dex) or 25 (+ shield spell), or 27 (+protection from evil), or 28 (+dodge), or 32 (+haste), or 35 (+large shield +1); Atk +8 melee (1d10+4 +1 glaive) or (1d8+2 masterwork light flail) or +8 ranged (1d8+2 masterwork mty [+2] composite longbow); SA: Spells; SQ: Spells, familiar; Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +8; Str 14, Dex 14, con 14, Int 16 (18), Wis 10, Cha 10.
Skills and Feats: Concentration +13, Spellcraft +10, etc.; Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Quickdraw, Expertise, Extend Spell, Expert Tactician.
Typical Spells prepared: 0-Dancing Lights x2, Detect Magic, Detect Poison; 1-Shield (x2), True Strike (or magic missile), Burning hands (or magic missile), Protection From Evil, Empty Slot; 2-Bull's Strength, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Protection From Arrows; 3-Blink, Dispel Magic, Haste x2
Equipment: +2 mithril chain shirt, +1 cloak of resistance, 1st level pearl of power, +1 large shield, +2 headband of intellect, +1 glaive, masterwork light flail, masterwork mighty [+2] composite longbow, dagger, spellbook, lots of scrolls and potions. A couple wands of magic missiles (clvl 1 and 3).
Both of these are pretty effective characters. However, I doubt that either are as effective as a single classed wizard or a single classed fighter.
