Shintoesque D&D

[Shades of Green]

Note: the following was written with D&D 3E or earlier (plus retro-clones) in mind as I don't know 4E too well...

I really think that an animistic cosmology would work very well with an E6 system. Suddenly, Dragons, Vampires, Aboleths, Beholders and so on would become *Gods* - more powerful than any mortal can ever be.

And in an E6 system, the highest spell level attainable by mortal spellcasters would be 3. However, it would still be possible for powerful spirits to cast them, or have equivalent powers. So an ambitious sorcerer would seek to sign pacts with powerful spirits in order to get them to cast high-level spells on his behalf... Even wishes could be had that way, as they are typically portrayed in faerie-tales: granted by mystical creatures, typically at a cost.

I'm in love with this concept!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And now, a musical interlude:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Korgoth]

I'm glad that it's working for you! I do think it's important to give the spirits access to magics to which the PCs do not have access. In OD&D (or "Ruins & Ronin"), where casts can only go as high as 6th level spells anyway, these could be the higher level spells from the supplements and/or just especially potent magics custom-designed by the Ref; also, the top-tier spells (5th level Cleric/Sohei spells or 6th level Magic-User/Shugenja spells) could require the active consent or assistance of a spirit to even cast.

In 3E, I think it would work as you said, assuming you're capping advancement to a suitably low level such as in E6 (which seems to me to be the way to play 3E, but that's another matter).

In 4E, the answer seems to be Rituals; these would be for spirits only (just as coffee is for closers only).

I don't tend to think much about the more open-ended Old School systems like BECMI/1E/2E, but I suppose in those rules you could likewise require top-tier spells to have the consent or assistance of a spirit.

Another possible way to go would be to use the notion of "spell components" and have them all based on spirits. That would take some work, but having all magic need stuff like "the tears of a kappa" or "an echo of the laughter of Lord Karo of the Frozen Groves" would be pretty darn cool.

Even another, less flavorful but less labor-intensive, approach would be to require spell scrolls as spell components. To cast a spell, you not only have to "know" it (whatever that entails in your system), you also have to have the scroll! Which is maybe even used up when you use the spell (I guess that's another take on prayer scrolls)... maybe the scroll has to be burned, or maybe it burns up on its own, or maybe it simply loses its magic but still looks just like it did before (if you prefer your magic subtle to keep those non-believers guessing). And what do you need to make spell scrolls? You guessed it: spirits have to be involved somehow.

 

[gamerprinter]

Of course I'm looking at doing this for Pathfinder, with no 6th level cap, but I'm looking at three different ways to go with this as far as an animist divine caster class:

1. Create a new class, basically named the Kannushi (shinto priest), but something more akin to a shaman, than the PF Cleric which doesn't fit.

2. Create an archetype of the druid class, severely nerf the Wildshape capability and remove the animal companion, but add community aiding spells, and spirit divination.

3. Create an oracle archetype, invent a new curse - locationary shrine, being limited on distance from your primary shrine or spirit's holy site. At higher level you can share closely aligned other spirits to cast magic. Then perhaps at even higher level partially absorb the Kami, so you can 'take it with you'.

I was heavily leaning toward druid archetype, but now Oracle looks so much better. My problem is that another divine caster was determined to be an Oracle, should I have two different types, or one Oracle and something else.

I've started a Shinto-esque thread in the Pathfinder boards for my settings specific needs.

 

[Nifft]

At higher level you can share closely aligned other spirits to cast magic. Then perhaps at even higher level partially absorb the Kami, so you can 'take it with you'.

This sounds like a Binder to me.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Shades of Green]

In 4E, the answer seems to be Rituals; these would be for spirits only (just as coffee is for closers only).

Exactly. And it also "feels" right - a lot of folk-tale and animist religious rituals involve calling a spirit of some sort.

Another possible way to go would be to use the notion of "spell components" and have them all based on spirits. That would take some work, but having all magic need stuff like "the tears of a kappa" or "an echo of the laughter of Lord Karo of the Frozen Groves" would be pretty darn cool.

Even another, less flavorful but less labor-intensive, approach would be to require spell scrolls as spell components. To cast a spell, you not only have to "know" it (whatever that entails in your system), you also have to have the scroll! Which is maybe even used up when you use the spell (I guess that's another take on prayer scrolls)... maybe the scroll has to be burned, or maybe it burns up on its own, or maybe it simply loses its magic but still looks just like it did before (if you prefer your magic subtle to keep those non-believers guessing). And what do you need to make spell scrolls? You guessed it: spirits have to be involved somehow.

Personally I wouldn't do it for most spells, as it would limit spellcasters by much, but rather for high-level spells, and/or instead of the XP cost of some spells (and magic-item creation?). Instead of spending XP on that spell or item, you'll have to ask a spirit to invest some of its force in it; only a few would readily agree, so there should usually be a price to this (e.g. a quest done for the spirit).

 

[Shades of Green]

If you want a more traditional cosmology, you can still use something very similar to this. In such a case, your setting will have a God of Light and a Dark God, but both would be quite distant from mortals; most priests won't have spells. However, both angels and demons would come to the mortal realm as emissaries of the Great Gods, and could be interacted with directly. Saints (good spellcasters) will converse with angels, learn their magic from them and be able to ask them to perform rituals/high-level magic on their behalf (for a good cause, and sometimes requiring a holy quest), while Warlocks (evil spellcasters) will consort with devils, learn spells from them and get them to perform rituals/high-level magic on their behalf for a price. A high price.

Of course, angels will rarely teach magic or perform rituals/high-level magic without a good reason, and they'll offer a limited selection of spells. A Saint could be powerful, but in order to maintain that power, he or she will have to adhere to the righteous path. The path of the Warlock will promise much, much more power, but would also be far, far more dangerous (as devils would rarely make fair deals).

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I really, really like that angels/devils approach as a basis for setting magic.

In a similar vein, I'm thinking about a world in which the gods are not just distant, but actually cut off completely. In such a world, some of these god-like beings might be divine avatars that are somehow stranded in world. As such, they are certainly relatively quite powerful (in an E6 world, they might have accesss to higher level spells, for example), but they are also permanently killable-- at least until the gods return.

Since I'm also thinking in terms of E6 here, I think these sorts of god-like beings work especially well when cast as the higher level aberrations or unique giant or fantastic creature here and there.

 

[Shades of Green]

I really, really like that angels/devils approach as a basis for setting magic.

Thanks for liking my idea!

Since I'm also thinking in terms of E6 here, I think these sorts of god-like beings work especially well when cast as the higher level aberrations or unique giant or fantastic creature here and there.

Exactly. That's what I was intending to use as spirits/"gods" in the first place - for the first time, Beholder Cults won't be a deception - now they'd really be gods!

 

[Shades of Green]

If there will ever be a "Best Thread of 2010" contest/poll, I'll definitely vote for this one! Best thread of the year!