Ship Building, Sea Life, and Naval Warfare

The first time they really caught my eye was when I watched a special on spies and their mechanical devices- miniaturized cameras and recorders, ways to stash film, etc.- on one of those educational channels like Discovery, Nat Geo, or PBS.

And 2 weeks later, sitting in a waiting room, I read one of their books about spies...and saw the same data. That told me someone was doing their research.

Shortly thereafter, in a different waiting room, I saw one on eyes. Great stuff!
 

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I believe that the unnamed books upthread are Of Ships and the Sea (2e) and The Seafarer's Handbook (3e), both of which are useful resources. You might also consider Pirates of the Sea of Fallen Stars if you are playing a 2e game. WotC did Seascape for 3.5, but I am not overly familiar with that book.

Mystic Eye Games' The Deep isn't about ships, but it has a lot of interesting ideas for aquatic dwellers, and should be on your shelf for a 3e naval milieu......It will give you many options for interesting NPCs from below, as well as some good options for ocean critters.

What ruleset do you intend to use? That might have an effect on what books are most useful to you.


RC
 

What ruleset do you intend to use? That might have an effect on what books are most useful to you.

I suspect I can basically adopt and incorporate anything I need to and modify it accordingly. This is the way I've always done it.

In Terra, the human world (our world), we use character classes and types I invented, which are a sort of amalgam of different editions, plus ideas of my own. These character classes are much more "human like." People don't leap twenty feet into the air, cause real people aren't capable of that (without assistance). On the other hand these classes and types allow people to fully exploit their human skills in ways other editions don't, and so the classes rely heavily upon human skills and capabilities exploited to the full extent of their individual development. (In this sense, to use a crude analogy, the character classes are the Batman type hero, without all of the jump fifty feet off a building, roll on landing, grunt a little, and arise unhurt. These are very human heroes. They are trained men and women who improve by hard experience in the real world, and by constant training and exercise. They are more like well-trained soldiers and firemen and policemen and detectives and scientists and monks than super-powered heroes.) We also don't use a D&D ruleset per se, like a published edition, but a sort of edition I developed over the years that is also a sort of amalgam edition with ideas of my own. I also took ideas from other games and incorporated those. It's all based primarily on D&D, but also heavily on wargaming, as I was wargaming long before I started playing D&D. It is also relies heavily on tactical simulation scenarios that I write (not simulationalism, in a gaming sense) but more on training scenarios. Think like law enforcement or military training situations. This is more like the real world. It's gritty and physically dangerous.

In Ghantik, the world of Elves, and Giants, and monsters, and that kind of thing, we use modifications on the 4th Edition character classes, cause I want the non-human and demi-human character types to be radically different from the human types. They rely far more on "powers" and magic (far less on acute and trained skill development) for their abilities and capabilities. (These character types and classes are more of the Superman/Iron Man model of hero, relative to the world they inhabit. Some of them can leap twenty feet in the air, some of them can use magic, some of them are extremely strong giants, for instance, some extremely fast, some can see in the infra-red spectrum, and so forth.) Humans don't possess innate and racial powers and magic, they possess skills and technology and science and religion. (And so humans and non-humans not only have totally different capabilities, but those differences in capabilities lead to totally different worldviews about how you go about solving problems and changing things. And that is part of the built in conflict of the overall milieu.) For that world we use the same basic ruleset as for Terra, only relative to capabilities and powers and magic. This keeps humans and their world and capabilities separate from demi-humans and their world and abilities. On occasion though individuals or small groups from either world will "invade" or travel to the Other World. When they meet, because humans and demi-humans are so radically different, not just in cultures and outlook, but also in capabilities, it makes if far better to me as a DM (and I think for my players) because I can see that humans and demi-humans actually look upon each other as "alien" in many ways. (They are not just different "racial versions" of the same character class. they are actually different races and different character classes. To that is a much, much better way to approach differences in racial types than just as minor racial differences combined with such similarities in classes that in effect, the racial and species differences get completely erased in play. Pragmatically speaking. Or in other words I don't want Humans and Elves and Giants being merely different versions of each other. I want them to be completely different from each other. Allies and friends sometimes, competitors at times, enemies at time, but never the same in basic nature, cause they are entirely different species. And I don't want class and capability similarities erasing that essential "foreignness.") So Ghantik is the mythological world. It's more fabulous and psychologically dangerous.

Once I get the time to fully revise and write out all of the ruleset we've used (for a decade or more now) then we'll use exactly the same ruleset for all three worlds. I've been too busy to do that lately, though I've gotten some of it re-written.

In the world I'm talking about in this thread, Ĩoħarml, we'll use the same basic ruleset but the character classes will be milieu-modified versions of the AD&D (1st Edition) classes.

Characters will arrive in Ĩoħarml from one of the other two worlds, as themselves, with their same minds and memories and souls, and their bodies will look exactly the same (they will be themselves essentially) but their capabilities will be those of their modified AD&D classes designed for Ĩoħarml. The only real question I have at this time concerning that is should they start out in Ĩoħarml as first level versions of their new character classes, or as the equivalent of their old levels in whatever world they originated from? For instance if you have a 12th Level Soldier from Terra, and he ends up on Ĩoħarml then should he start out as a 1st Level Sailor (a Sea-Fighter) or as a 12th level Sailor. I see arguments for both sides. On the one hand he will have already accumulated a great deal of experience as a fighter and soldier, so he'll naturally know how to fight, and how to survive. But realistically, how much will he already know about sailing? (Sailing is a very precise set of skills and sub-skills. Which can be learned, but it's not something people are born with, and I don't think would just inherit because they are transported to a new world.) Although the characters occasionally travel and even serve aboard ship, it's usually as fighter support, not as Sailors. And a Sailor will know not only how to fight aboard ship, but how to operate a ship. So the "level-transference" question is a tricky one. For all intents and purposes though the Ĩoħarml classes will be modified AD&D classes. in this world the "racial and species alienness" will be erased to some extent through the AD&D classes. This is more the pulp fantasy with some high fantasy type of world. It will be gritty and realistic most of the time, but everyone will be capable of fabulous and unbelievable things at times as well. It's sort of a combination of the other two worlds.
 

this does sound like a pretty neat campaign. But I'd be leery of letting the PCs design their own ships into any really bizarre ones. Ships turned out the way they did in our history due to millenia of trial and error, and there were usually damn good practical reasons for ships being built the way they were. Chances are, if the PCs redesign sails or decks willy nilly, they'd end up making something not seaworthy. Rearranging the weaponry or the interior rooms would probably be okay, but I'd balk at redesigning vital stuff like the masts or rudders...
 

IFor instance if you have a 12th Level Soldier from Terra, and he ends up on Ĩoħarml then should he start out as a 1st Level Sailor (a Sea-Fighter) or as a 12th level Sailor.

I would say he is a 12th level Sailor who arrives with a circumstance penalty on the use of certain sailing related skills resulting from his lack of familiarity, but that he would certainly overcome the challenges of adapting to a new world and new technology faster than a 1st level sailor would become a 12th level sailor.

These character classes are much more "human like." People don't leap twenty feet into the air, cause real people aren't capable of that (without assistance). On the other hand these classes and types allow people to fully exploit their human skills in ways other editions don't, and so the classes rely heavily upon human skills and capabilities exploited to the full extent of their individual development.

This is an interesting claim but I can't really tell from reading it what it means.

What for example are 'human skills' that other editions don't have that are also 'realistic' and how are the exploited in ways not provided by other editions?
 

This is an interesting claim but I can't really tell from reading it what it means.

What for example are 'human skills' that other editions don't have that are also 'realistic' and how are the exploited in ways not provided by other editions?

Yeah, I probably phrased that incompletely or misleadingly. I meant that the way we do it allows a far more complete exploitation of human skills, both in variety and detail, than other versions of the game.

I was talking primarily about degree since humans in our games rely so much and so thoroughly upon their skills rather than upon magic and powers. So I was really talking about degree and nature of use.

But also about things like very specific skill sets. For instance the Ranger can manhunt to a very great degree. Other characters can learn to manhunt too, but it is a skill specific to the Ranger's nature in our setting because of the nature of the class itself. And he can learn to fight fires and handle disasters and deal with plagues and so forth. Those are things he's likely to do a lot.

Every class has a far wider range of skill sets than is typical for most D&D games.

In that setting humans are "skill reliant beings" to a large degree, just as they are in the real world. The setting is constructed that way.

Now in the demi-human world most characters can develop "crafts," which are similar to skills, but are more often than not related to better exploiting powers. This is because demi-humans rely more upon their powers for survival and humans rely more upon their skills. And the number of crafts they have are usually far less numerous and less varied than human skills.

I didn't mean to imply though that other versions don't use skills, just not in the same way or to the same degree.


I would say he is a 12th level Sailor who arrives with a circumstance penalty on the use of certain sailing related skills resulting from his lack of familiarity, but that he would certainly overcome the challenges of adapting to a new world and new technology faster than a 1st level sailor would become a 12th level sailor.

That's a good suggestion and idea. Especially for the human characters who transport into that world.
 

this does sound like a pretty neat campaign. But I'd be leery of letting the PCs design their own ships into any really bizarre ones.

I concur. You might end up with oared iron clads or other such crap that might work in the imagination of some players, but which doesn't really work in the imagination of anyone whose done as much as row an overladen canoe on a windy day or in a current.

On the other hand, if your system is robust enough, you probably can punish bad designs easily enough to prevent them. The problem here though is such a system requires so much effort to achieve so little reward, that there is really no advantage to having such a system compared to simply listing valid designs by fiat.
 

Yeah, I probably phrased that incompletely or misleadingly. I meant that the way we do it allows a far more complete exploitation of human skills, both in variety and detail, than other versions of the game.

It's that claim of variaty and detail which particularly perks up my interest and wholly unconcealed desire to steal idaes.

For example, in my 3e inspired campaign, there is a more or less mundane class called 'Explorer' which is designed to be a fit for things like your Sailor class.

Explorers have access to skills like Diplomacy, Boating, Navigation, Survival, Use Rope, Climb, Run, Porter, Swim, Spot, and so forth - all of which are basically 'mundane' skills in as much as they are intended over a range of low level characters to reflect what real people can actually do. On the other hand, in the case of Climb and Run and perhaps even Swim, sufficient skill in those would let you do 'superhuman' things along the lines of the 'jump 20' up' that you site.

Now granted, I'm thinking for removing most strength based skills from the D20 systemization entirely in favor of a non-random skill rank = ability model (see the iron bars scene in 'The Gamers'), but how do you actually obtain the 'realistic skills' while capping them in a realistic range and also allowing progression in a skill.

But also about things like very specific skill sets. For instance the Ranger can manhunt to a very great degree. Other characters can learn to manhunt too, but it is a skill specific to the Ranger's nature in our setting because of the nature of the class itself. And he can learn to fight fires and handle disasters and deal with plagues and so forth. Those are things he's likely to do a lot.

This is very much what I was trying to get at by questioning you here.

So, you have an actual 'Fire Fighting' skill representing skill at putting out fires? What does the 'Handle Disaster' skill do for you? Why is this a different skill than some sort of generalized, 'Manage and Organize Groups' or 'Knows about Logistics' skill? Why did you choose to treat 'Deal with Plague' as being different than a generalized 'Knows about Medicine' skill? How many skills do have and how do you handle issues like skill overlap (two skills are described in such a way that either could apply), skill gaps (some activity is not covered by one of your skills), and allocation of skills into your buckets such that everyone seems skillful (lots of buckets but not alot of points to fill them with)?

I didn't mean to imply though that other versions don't use skills, just not in the same way or to the same degree.

I didn't think you were implying that, but as someone with my own somewhat customized skill list I'm always interested in how someone else approached the challenge without falling into some of the traps of GURPS on one end and 4e on the other.
 

Hmm. If I'm reading you right, then you ask some complicated questions CB. I don't wanna overcomplicate or confuse my answer so I'll just use a few examples.

The Ranger (or any human class) has built into it certain abilities at each level. Sometimes more than one. Like in AD&D, but none of the abilities are magical (except for Clerics and Monks and Hermits who get religious or spiritual capabilities, some of which might seem magical, but most are far more psychological, mental, or pragmatic), they are all skill based.

But at any point a Ranger (or the person playing them) can forego their normal "class skill set" (cause all skills have to be learned and trained at) for some skill possessed by another class (only a very few skills are restricted per se, but you still gotta get somebody to teach ya whatever it is you wanna learn) or just a general human skill.

This avoids "builds" and allows all human characters to be unique. A Ranger can be just like the standard idea of a Ranger as far as the class template goes, but at any point he can trade up or learn different skills, or even push around certain skills to be learned at an earlier or later time than would be the "norm" or standard class model. (The exception are some of the higher level skills, which require a lot of experience to master. For instance a 20th level Soldier gets Commander in Chief, which has many different advantages, and a 20th level Paladin gets Sainthood, which also gets more than one advantage type. Sainthood as an example gives spiritual, mental, social, cultural, and religious benefits, as well as bestowing the Sainthood skill set.) And you can expend intelligence and wisdom and other things to help with your training, to speed up, put off, or rearrange skill sets.

So it's like in the real world. A Soldier for instance must go through basic training, and there is a standard model for skills that must be learned and shared among all soldiers. After that they can differentiate, depending on specialty path, and they can train in things for both professional and personal reasons. (A soldier can learn to play the guitar and sing well, like a Bard, not because it's part of his professional skill set, but because he wants to and finds it useful in other ways.) And while one Special Forces Soldier (to use a real world analogy) learns advanced communications as a lieutenant, another might as a sergeant. Or he might never learn advanced communications. He may learn basic bomb disposal instead. Is this making sense? So it works like that. A Ranger is a Ranger and all Rangers must know somethings in common. After that there is wide variation.

But there are no "builds." Each build or variation is unique. Fro instance if a Ranger is primarily a Frontier's lawman, scout, and man, (and most are in my setting) then he's probably gonna wanna know the languages of the frontier, and some Persian. If he works as an undercover operative in Constantinople, he'll wanna know Greek and Latin, and some trade languages. If he's along the frontiers he's gonna wanna know how to handle fires and disasters. In Constantinople he'll wanna know how to handle plagues and diplomacy.

So what a Ranger does and what skills sets he knows will be primarily dependent upon where he is located, what he's likely to run into, and when, who he's dealing with, what languages are being spoken, and what his job will entail. It will also be dependent on the individual. If a Ranger wants to know how to play an instrument like a Bard, pray or write sermons like a Cleric, or lead a small group like a Soldier, then he can learn those things if he can find somebody to teach him.

Now, let me see if I can give a few brief specific responses.


So, you have an actual 'Fire Fighting' skill representing skill at putting out fires? What does the 'Handle Disaster' skill do for you? Why is this a different skill than some sort of generalized, 'Manage and Organize Groups' or 'Knows about Logistics' skill?

It depends a lot on the nature of the disaster. It could be organizing groups, taking charge, or it could be triage, or Search and Rescue, or it could be reconnaissance and sizeup (recognizing what needs to be done and in what order). It could be all of these things. It could be an earthquake, a major storm, a wildfire, a plague, a surprise invasion on a defenseless area. I guess I should explain that some skills in my game are really "Skill Sets" and are far more complicated than a single skill. For most purposes handling ropes is a skill, Handling Disaster is a situationallly dependent "skill-set." I let the player decide how they will handle their skill sets, and in what order of response.


Why did you choose to treat 'Deal with Plague' as being different than a generalized 'Knows about Medicine' skill?

Because a plague is very different from what one normally encounters in common medical situations, and yet were common enough and lethal enough in the ancient world to be a real problem requiring real skill to respond to. Complicated skill sets usually depend on need, response, and how likely you are to encounter that situation.


How many skills do have and how do you handle issues like skill overlap (two skills are described in such a way that either could apply), skill gaps (some activity is not covered by one of your skills), and allocation of skills into your buckets such that everyone seems skillful (lots of buckets but not alot of points to fill them with)?

As many skills as there are in real life. It works just like real human skills in this way. I've written up a lot of skills but if a player can suggest one and we don't have it, and he wants it, I (or sometimes we) will sit down and write it up. It has to be appropriate to the setting and actually useful enough that the player might need it. Fro instance digging a well, anybody fit enough and who has enough time and the right tools, can do. Locating water, that's a skill.

Some skills obviously overlap. A Soldier and a Ranger will both know how to fight well. Conduct ambushes, etc. The way they go about it will vary. Depends on training and intent. A Soldier is far more likely to know how and to be good at group ambushes, ambushing parties and combined forces. A Ranger in my setting will be better at ambushing individuals, or small groups. Cause that's what Soldiers tend to do, ambush groups, and Rangers tend to ambush individuals. Again, like real life. Same skill, different applications.

Don't usually use points for skills either. You usually prove you possess a skill by describing and/or acting out exactly how you'd do a thing. Dice are usually only introduced at the player's discretion and/or if a thing is really, really difficult and you are is attempting something at the very limits of human capability or physical ability, or if some force is opposing your attempt to use a skill.

I think I've probably already explained above how characters get and use and arrange their skills. Core, then whatever they wish to do. If people have skill gaps, then usually the party can cover it, or if no-one in the party is trained for it they can still attempt it based on their closest skill or skill set. It's like in real life. Having a skill at archery does not exclude being able to start a fire. You may not be trained at starting fires, but you can still attempt it. Just using good old human ingenuity, observation, and experimentation. Skills aren't exclusionary, they just aren't necessarily applicable to any given situation.

I should also say that in my settings players can transfer their real world skills (assuming they are setting appropriate - a Cleric of the 9th century doesn't know and has no need for computer hacking skills) to their character. And practice them in-game.


I didn't think you were implying that, but as someone with my own somewhat customized skill list I'm always interested in how someone else approached the challenge without falling into some of the traps of GURPS on one end and 4e on the other.

I'm not sure exactly what traps ya mean. But I don't think we overcomplicate it. It works more like real life skills. I want it to be flexible, but we don't overmath it up or lay on complicated rules or strictures.


Explorers have access to skills like Diplomacy, Boating, Navigation, Survival, Use Rope, Climb, Run, Porter, Swim, Spot, and so forth - all of which are basically 'mundane' skills in as much as they are intended over a range of low level characters to reflect what real people can actually do. On the other hand, in the case of Climb and Run and perhaps even Swim, sufficient skill in those would let you do 'superhuman' things along the lines of the 'jump 20' up' that you site.

In this setting (Terra), since everybody's human, unless they are an invader or visitor, no-one can jump twenty feet straight up. Biology and physics limits it. So obviously, given that caveat, our situations and settings differ.

Now in the sea setting, it will be different. Sometimes things like you say will occur, it will depend on the situation, and who is doing what. For instance an Elf using magic or some power might very well leap 20 feet upwards. Even a human affected or using magic could do so possibly. In Terra though actions are limited to what humans can actually do based on highest skill and physical and mental and psychological development. So in Terra development and training is the key to accomplishment. There is no magic there, though occasionally miracles occur. Like religious miracles.

I like the idea of an Explorer class by the way. As a separate class. I like Explorers. In the real world. Those are guys with a wide Ranger of impressive and very useful skill sets. they are often also survivalists extraordinaire.


I will say this in general about skill use in many games. As a sort of theoretical sidenote. I think there was a mistaken game design principle of taking skills and skill sets and then reverse engineering them to fit onto and act like powers and other capabilities in games, thereby creating unrealistic and feats which are really just minor magical powers. This really makes skills indistinguishable from other capabilities in my opinion. And either degrades or erases their true value.

So the basic idea in design was to take game background assumptions and then add on skills and skill sets so that skills don't remain skills at all but evolve into other things. In other words game assumptions first, then just plug in skills as an extra "power." This isn't how skills actually work. Skills are trained abilities that develop and evolve with practice and experience, they never exceed certain real limitations, but the combination of a high degree or training and experience, combined with multiple skills and skill sets are the things that make humans so amazingly versatile, capable, and accomplished. It's not that skills are magic, or should act like magic, it's that when you are properly trained and able, you can do seemingly miraculous things. Things other people might think impossible, not because they really are impossible, but that you are skilled enough to overcome the impossible. But with many games, they got the equation backwards (and this is why I think skills are inadequate in many games, overcomplicated in some games, useless in some, and just plain kinda silly and unbelievable in others). They started with game assumptions first, then just tacked on skills as an afterthought. I started first with the actual nature of skills (something I've both studied and practiced for a long time), then wrote the game assumptions around that. Individual skills are naturally limited, but used properly and in the correct combinations, skills are like a human version of near God-like capabilities. For skills are in many ways the nature of Genius and accomplishment. A kind of miracle that is both mundane, yet incredible at the same time.

Well, I gotta go check my books and work out now.
Hope I answered your questions.

Gave it a shot anyways.
See ya.
 

Good luck finding a copy these days, but FGU's Bireme & Galley was great -- partly for the 25mm-scale deck plans.

Judges Guild's Sea Steeds and Wave Riders might have a bit about construction, but I'm not sure.

I think analogy of ancient/medieval naval architecture with designing starships in Traveller might be a bit of a stretch. One would really not be dealing in standardized, plug-together components, I think. A ship can take a wide variety of forms, and historically a proven subset of those was traditional (as with, for instance, houses and furnishings).

IIRC, Paul Elliott's Mercator (an ancient-world version of Traveller) does not actually include a ship-design sequence -- just a listing of standard designs.
 
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