D&D 3E/3.5 Shooting past people. 3.5

[animaster]

I am a bit unsertain how to handle shooting past people and creatures are handled.

Let me give you an example.
Our groups thief is scouthing first in a 5' wide dungeon when a rat ambushes the wizard at the back. Between them there are a cleric dwarf, elven ranger and barbar fighter. (expertly illustrated below )

rwcrf t

Afther the first round of suprise the thief wins the iniative and whants to shoot at the rat.

1. Can he do it and if so what modifications should apply?
Shooting into melee is -4 (or so i think)
Do the rat get a Cover bonus?

2. Same situation but dungeon is 10' wide so peole arent so mutch crammed together but still 3 people are between shooter and melee.

3. Same as 1 but the thief detects the rat before the ambush strikes and whants to do a sneak attack. Can he do it and if so what modifications do we use.

Thanks in advance for your toughts

 

[irdeggman]

-4 for shooting into melee

+4 soft cover bonus for the rat. (PHB pg 150)

Essentially a -8 on attack roll or a +8 to opponents AC (the actually breakdown is -4 on attack and a +4 on target AC)

PHB pg 151 has a good illustration that adresses this.

 

[animaster]

-4 for shooting into melee

+4 soft cover bonus for the rat. (PHB pg 150)

Essentially a -8 on attack roll or a +8 to opponents AC (the actually breakdown is -4 on attack and a +4 on target AC)

PHB pg 151 has a good illustration that adresses this.

Thanks for a very good answer

 

[radmod]

In line with indeggman's answer:
From SRD:
"To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes ... through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). "
So, technically, IMO, he's right.
2) you should be able to step 5 ft. to the side and draw the above line so that you remove the cover penalties. You still take a 'friendlies' penalty of -4 to hit. (As a side note: if you are firing at a combat that is 'sideways' to you, you don't take a cover penalty, just the shooting in combat one.)
3) same as 1 and yes you can sneak attack. That is, presuming you are attacking BEFORE the ambush and not after the surprise round.

With that said, an argument can be made that EACH creature provides a cover bonus. IIRC, the image indeggman mentioned sort of implied it to me. That's the way I DM it as being more 'realistic'.

So, the way I DM it (probably not technically correct):
1) the cleric doesn't count because he's adjacent and it's like shooting from behind a pillar (my rule - similar to low obstacle). The ranger, fighter, and wiz (assuming 'active') all provide cover/penalty so it's essentially a +12 cover bonus and -4 penalty to the roll.
2) if they are all in line, the same penalty applies. If you can step 5 ft. to the side then you should be able to remove the cover bonus but not the 'friendlies' penalty.
3) Now that I didn't think about - good question! Technically, they still provide cover.
However, since the basis for my ruling is that usually PCs are moving around thus they unintentionally give cover, I would treat everyone as flat-footed (except the barb technically) and be like a series of thin pillars, so I would probably give you the -8 and that's it.

Our questions generally dealt with shooting the enemy spellcaster behind the front rank of fighting in the 5' corridor.

 

[Vegepygmy]

1. Can he do it and if so what modifications should apply?

Yes, he can do it. The rat gains a +4 bonus to AC due to having soft cover. Additionally, the thief takes a -4 on his attack roll if the rat is in melee with one of the thief's allies.

2. Same situation but dungeon is 10' wide so peole arent so mutch crammed together but still 3 people are between shooter and melee.

It depends on exactly where creatures are standing, but it's almost certain the rat will have soft cover (+4 bonus to AC). See the illustration on page 151 of the PHB.

3. Same as 1 but the thief detects the rat before the ambush strikes and whants to do a sneak attack. Can he do it and if so what modifications do we use.

Cover (whether soft or hard) is irrelevant for purposes of a sneak attack. The thief takes the same penalty for shooting into melee, the rat gets the same bonus to AC for soft cover, and if he hits, the thief deals his usual extra damage.

 

[animaster]

Thanks again for your input.
The illustration on page 151 is actualy quite good. (Must been several 1 checks made to miss it )

 

[irdeggman]

2) you should be able to step 5 ft. to the side and draw the above line so that you remove the cover penalties. You still take a 'friendlies' penalty of -4 to hit. (As a side note: if you are firing at a combat that is 'sideways' to you, you don't take a cover penalty, just the shooting in combat one.)

If it is a 5 ft wide corridor - you can't step to the side and gain a clear line of sight.

If the target is in the 5 ft corridor an you are not but the target is in the bakc of the column (unless you have a sidewise view - which doesn't seem likely in a 5 ft wide corridor) - you can't step aside and gain a clear line of sight either.

 

[radmod]

If it is a 5 ft wide corridor - you can't step to the side and gain a clear line of sight.

If the target is in the 5 ft corridor an you are not but the target is in the bakc of the column (unless you have a sidewise view - which doesn't seem likely in a 5 ft wide corridor) - you can't step aside and gain a clear line of sight either.

Um, ir, his question (#2) was about a 10' corridor. And what I left out was "if the rat isn't adjacent to a PC, you should be able ...". If the rat is already adjacent, IIRC, it wouldn't be possible to avoid the soft cover.

 

[irdeggman]

Um, ir, his question (#2) was about a 10' corridor. And what I left out was "if the rat isn't adjacent to a PC, you should be able ...". If the rat is already adjacent, IIRC, it wouldn't be possible to avoid the soft cover.

Sorry about that multi-part question, but still will have soft cover.

You are not looking for any line that doesn't connect but any line that does - and since there will always be at least one line if you have 2 squares and then a series of them - you will always have soft cover.

When in doubt lay it out on a grid map.

 

[radmod]

Sorry about that multi-part question, but still will have soft cover.

You are not looking for any line that doesn't connect but any line that does - and since there will always be at least one line if you have 2 squares and then a series of them - you will always have soft cover.

When in doubt lay it out on a grid map.

Yes, grids are always best.

Yeah, ir, you're right, for my part I forgot there was more than one PC in-between the rogue and mage. So it would be the "double plus one" rule: if the rat is more than 15 ft. away from the mage, then the PC should be able to step diagonally up to be next to the dwarf (15 ft. from the front of the party). If you choose your corner as the (left/right) farthest away from the party and (up/down)closest to the mage then you will not suffer cover penalties. Likewise if the rat is not in the same 'column' as the PC line, the rogue can step into that column and avoid cover.

Animaster, you might want to check with your DM, ahead of time, about whether or not a line going through just the corner of a square counts as blocking. I can't remember if there is an official ruling on this, but some DMs apparently call that blocking. I've never met one (and certainly not me).