shooting/trowing strait up

[Moff_Tarkin]

I play a lot of flying characters and I was wondering if there were any official rules for shooting or throwing at things way up in the air. Basic physics suggest that just because you can make that arrow/rock reach an enemy x yards in front of you doesn’t mean you can reach an enemy x yards above you. It’s much harder to shoot up then forward. I always find it hard that people can shoot arrows over 200 feet strait up into the air to hit me for full damage.

So is there an official rule on shooting things up above you. If there isn’t then does anyone have any ideas on house rules for this? I know questions about house rules go in the house rules forum but the main purpose of this post it to see if there is an “Official” rule on this. I would just like to hear personal ideas if there isn’t.

One more unrelated thing. How far up would you have to be before you could be considered too far away to see?

 

[Anabstercorian]

One more unrelated thing. How far up would you have to be before you could be considered too far away to see?

Probably over a thousand feet. On a clear day? Over a mile, if you were moving.

 

[Bauglir]

For shooting vertically, I would suggest you take some inspiration from the jump skill, and consider the range increment of the weapon as a quarter of its normal range increment.

Probably over a thousand feet. On a clear day? Over a mile, if you were moving.

You're likely thinking of that silly 'reality' thing . Spot checks have a -1 penalty per 10 feet distance, so all but the master spotter is unlikely to see anything beyond the first 100-200 feet.

 

[Snowy]

*my first post after a while of lurking*

was talking about this yesterday with a friend and we came to the conclusion that its much easier to spot someone that isnt actually trying to hide.
As in -1 per 10 foot to see someone trying to hide from you (or with partial concealment etc etc)
but if they are just standing on their own in the middle of a open field 300 foot off their not invisible to low level characters (-30 to spot!!) otherwise it would make the range limit on a longbow pretty useless.

even i suppose a fireball, that is range 400ft isnt it? -40 to spot, you coulnt ever see anyone to target it at range.

interpretation rather than rules i know. but seems itd be just as easy to spot someone flying through clear skies just as easily. if it was cloudy then you could get concealment and try and hide, if theres none your a sitting duck. well a flying one anyway.

 

[WaterRabbit]

For what it is worth, a person with 20/20 vision can see a human-sized object at 1,320 feet (1/4 mile) if both are standing on the ground and have an unobstructed view. If the observer has some sort of height advantage he can see somewhat further.

If you have ever observed someone skydive you can get some idea of how far away you could see them. I personally cannot see the diver until they get to about 5,000 feet -- and that is only if I know where to look. However, when I have observed tandem jumps I can see the drogue at the point of jump which is about 10,000 feet.

A projectile can achieve its maximum range when fired at a 45 degree angle to the horizon. If you fired it straight up, it will cover half that distance. Therefore, you should halve the range increment.

For example, take a longbow which fires an arrow at 200 feet per second. If you fired it for range it would travel v^2/g or (200 fps)^2 / 32 fps^2 = 1250 feet. That is fairly close to the distance a d20 composite longbow will shoot an arrow (110*10=1100 feet or 1650 feet with the Far Shot feat).

If you fired that same arrow straight up it will travel upward for 625 feet which is half our maximum distance.

 

[Deimodius]

What about relatove motion of the flying creature, wind force & directon, and the rotation of the earth? As a DM I would probably give a neg mod to the Atttack role, or up the defender's AC.

 

[JimAde]

What about relatove motion of the flying creature, wind force & directon, and the rotation of the earth? As a DM I would probably give a neg mod to the Atttack role, or up the defender's AC.

Relative motion and wind are factors regardless of where the target is. Rotation of the earth doesn't come into it unless you're trying to hit a satellite or something

I'm not aware of an official rule, though I've looked for one as well. Not many fliers in my game, but there was an archery duel with a guard at the top of the wall and the PC at the bottom. Seemed to me the guard should have an advantage...

I'm not quite sure about WaterRabbit's math, but I think the conclusion is perfectly reasonable. If you're shooting straight up (or nearly so) halve the range increment, or double the effective range (same thing).

 

[WaterRabbit]

What about relatove motion of the flying creature, wind force & directon, and the rotation of the earth? As a DM I would probably give a neg mod to the Atttack role, or up the defender's AC.

Assuming you are not being sarcastic, look in the SRD Wilderness and Environment > Winds for their effect on ranged attacks. Strong winds impose a -2 penalty to ranged attack rolls, severe winds impose a -4 penalty, and ranged attacks are impossible at wind speeds of 50 mph or more.

Relative motion is not taken into account in the d20 system regardless of the target's movement mode. The only benefit for movement is if the target is "running". The target cannot apply its dexterity bonus to its AC but gets a +2 bonus instead. However, if you are really interested, GURPs has a chart that you can use for this. Translation to d20 will be the difficult part.

The rotation of the earth is generally not an issue in projectile motion calculations unless you are firing self-propelled projectiles at very long ranges (i.e. missiles).

I'm not quite sure about WaterRabbit's math, but I think the conclusion is perfectly reasonable. If you're shooting straight up (or nearly so) halve the range increment, or double the effective range (same thing).

Now, I am a little rusty here, but I think my math is correct. We first calculate when the speed of the project will reach zero. Which occurs 6.25 seconds after leaving the bow (assuming an initial velocity of 200 fps). We then plug that value into the one-dimensional distance equation, which gives us 625 feet.

However, you can go to this website http://www.huntingsociety.org/ArrowInfo.html and see the experiments they did with arrows traveling at 150 fps.

 

[JimAde]

Now, I am a little rusty here, but I think my math is correct. We first calculate when the speed of the project will reach zero. Which occurs 6.25 seconds after leaving the bow (assuming an initial velocity of 200 fps). We then plug that value into the one-dimensional distance equation, which gives us 625 feet.

However, you can go to this website http://www.huntingsociety.org/ArrowInfo.html and see the experiments they did with arrows traveling at 150 fps.

I'm not doubting you, I'm just admitting that I didn't take the time to really understand it. I'm sure your physics are fine, but for my purposes I just think the conclusion is reasonable and very workable in-game.

 

[Moff_Tarkin]

I was also thinking that in some situations there might be an additional penaly to spot somone way up in the air. Like when people are travling down a road or wherever they dont tend to look way up in the sky, they may glance now and then but they arent always staring at somthing that is 100s of feet up, espesialy if they are engaged in a battle on the ground.