[short rant] My only beef with EPIC...

[Dark Eternal]

I think you'll find this agrees with your post above . Especially as regards "I do believe the system that they've presented requires a lot of adjucation on the dungeon master's part. "

It's certainly not impossible to use.

I concede - you and I are, fundamentally, in agreement after all. Thank you, and well stated.

Point and match to seasong.

Edit: Truncated sig.

 

[seasong]

So here's the math.

Wizard, level 21
Spellcraft 24 ranks
- Skill Focus +2
- Skill Roll +26
- We want a DC of 10, however, for development costs.

Armor Seed DC 14
- natural armor bonus +4
- duration 24 hours
- DC +2 per extra +1 AC

-8 DC: Backlash 8d6 (max 48 hp damage, you should have average 50 hp)
-18 DC: 10 minute casting
-20 DC: 10 day casting

Total: DC -32
To get a DC 2 (for net DC 10 after permanence) needs +34

+34 DC: AC increased by +17 (to natural AC +21)

x5 DC: Permanent

Final DC 10

Other ways to reduce cost:
- Each 200 XP cost translates directly into +1 AC.
- Have a 17th level friend or cohort contribute an 9th level spell slot, for another +8 AC.
- Change to personal range for +1 AC.

Regardless, cost to develop will be about 90,000 GP, 2 days, and 3,600 XP.

Give it a cost of 1,400 XP, one friend or cohort's 9th level spell, and you have a +36 natural armor bonus for a net cost of 4,000 XP, 12 days, and 90,000 GP.

And once it's developed, it costs 1,400 XP and 10 days per buddy in your party. If you have 3 friends (standard 4 party), you will expend a total of 8,200 XP, which will put you just a bit behind your compadres (and they'll likely recompense you pretty well).

 

[Kweezil]

So here's the math.

Final DC 10

Which is fine, if you don't mind taking the 8d6 damage each round for the rest of your (rather short) life. Backlash damage is applied each round for the duration of the spell.

 

[kenjib]

The primary problem with the ELH spell creation rules, and a completely fatal and system-breaking error IMO, is that the cost savings of the negative effects you can choose are presented in absolute values instead of a percentage (or some other proportional relationship) of the casting cost. These costs absolutely need to scale with the power (and the nature, even, which is of course subjective) of the spell being cost. I must say that the system looks very poorly thought out, and I doubt there was much, if any, mathematical analysis involved.

 

[seasong]

Ah, then drop the backlash entirely. That drops it to +32 natural armor bonus.

 

[A'koss]

These build your own spell systems are always great in theory, but I haven't seen one that hasn't fallen short in practice. IMO, they should have ditched the system and simply created fully statted 10th+ level spells in the same vein as every other spell. Why change a system that works? (for the most part... ) Individual spells are much easier to balance that to create some grand, sweeping system which simply screams to be abused (ask me how to kill Asmodeus in a single attack) and is difficult enough to know exactly where to draw the line.

/rant off


A'koss!

 

[Mulkhoran]

(ask me how to kill Asmodeus in a single attack)

/rant off

A'koss!

[obligatory]

How do you kill Asmodeus in a single attack?

[/obligatory]

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by Mulkhoran:

[obligatory]

How do you kill Asmodeus in a single attack?

[/obligatory]

Allow me to introduce to you A'koss's Epic Abusing Fiend Lord Spanking Spell!

Range: 600' (out of range of Spell Stoway feats if you want to Time Stop/Teleport into range)

Caster: Let's say a 27th level Wizard with a 30 INT who has Epic Spell Penetration & Epic Spell Focus...

Asmo has a +29 Fort Save so we'll set the Slay's Save DC at: 10+10+10+6+13 (pumped up Epic Spell) = DC 49 and thus Asmo will require a N20 to save.

To cut through his SR of 45 the Wizard has a base +35 and we'll give the spell another +10 to this just to be sure.

DC 25 (slay seed) + 20 (1 action CT) + 2 (+100% Range) + 26 (+13 DC Save x 2) + 20 (+10 to beat SR x 2) = DC 93 - 20 (20d6 backlash) - 40 (4,000 xp burn, could be more if we wanted) = Final Spellcraft DC of 33, easily made.

If the caster didn't have *any* Spell Penetration or Focus feats the DC goes up 24 and the Wizard will have to burn a total 6,400 xp to do the same job.

Since Asmo is DR 0, he's not immune to death effects and so all the wizard has to do is cast this spell from wayyy off and Asmo bites the dust unless he miraculously rolls a N20. At that level the Wizard could cast it at least 3 times in a single day... Asmo's death should recover that XP loss nicely.

The real lethality comes in when you Time Stop, then Teleport into range, use the Slay Spell, then Teleport out... And finally, this kind of spell scales nicely if you choose to develop an even more powerful version like say, if you wanted to instakill Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons (which can be done at <40th level).

 

[rounser]

Re the Epic casting -- still, at least they tried. You can tell they tried, and it's in general a neat idea, the "seeds" and such.

Perhaps they should have known better than to try an open-ended design model for powerful magic in the first place.

It doesn't take a game design theory guru to realise that any such system which has pretensions exceeding a minimal level of open-ended complexity and power leaves the barn door wide open to abuse. But hey, hindsight's 20:20...

 

[magnas_veritas]

Better hope nothing else comes up during those 3 months you need to cast it.

And, as has been said, at epic levels, +20 just ain't that much.

First, make your own demiplane.

Next, go back to the spell, erase the word "armor", and insert the word "natural armor." Repeat with "insight," "divine," "sacred," etc.

Better yet, get a bunch of friends who all have at least one caster level from somewhere. Take them to your demiplane. Design Epic Armor Spell as listed above, but changing the target to an area large enough to hold those friends, with a targeted final DC of the primary caster's Spellcraft check +10.

Do that multiple times for Armor, Natural Armor, Insight, Divine, etc., and you'll never be hit again. Sure, it's expensive in gold and XP and time, but you know what? It's probably worth it. You can charge your friends for the money, and the XP can be saved up fairly easily.

What's worse? My DM suggested that to us. We're nowhere near close enough yet, and probably won't bother.

Brad