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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8751002" data-attributes="member: 7030563">And I have never played an 8th level sword and board fighter with PAM.  As a matter of fact I have never even had a sword and board PAM fighter at my table.  Not saying it is a bad build but it is not common.  The majority of sword and board fighters are not going to have this feat at 8th level, they are going to have a different feat, or an ASI in another ability.  There about 70 different feats you can take, probably 40 of them are viable and you are going to be behind a Monk at 8th level after you take some 35 of those as well as if you take an ASI in another ability (in addition to also being behind at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and slightly behind at 6th and 7th).  That pretty much covers ALL of tier 1 and tier 2 which is what my statement was.I said specifically without using feats and using class abilities. I made the statement "you could use feats" to build a fighter that does more, but feats are not a fighter class ability, they are not in the PHB under the fighter.  If we are looking outside the classes there are all sorts of things you can do - cantrips, subclasses, races (that give the monk access to d10 weapons) which is why I said "class abilities".  This is not a comparison between the best builds, it is a comparison of the classes alone.PAM is not relevant to most fighters (a lot yes, most no), yet you still used it to boost your numbers.</blockquote>