Short Rests?

[Abciximab]

For official rules I'm pretty sure Caliber has it right, this is cut and paste directly from the Quick Start PDF (I know, not necessarily the best rescource ) I haven't seen anything about auto-stablizing at the end of combat, though I am no 4th edition rules Guru. I'm interested to see what Legildur may find.

Healing in Combat
Even in a heated battle, you can heal. You can heal yourself
by using your second wind, an ally can use the Heal
skill on you, and an ally can use a healing power on you.
When a power heals you, you don’t have to take an
action to spend a healing surge. Even if you’re unconscious,
the power uses your healing surge and restores hit
points. And some healing powers restore hit points without
requiring you to spend a healing surge.
When you are dying, any healing restores you to at least
1 hit point. If someone has stabilized you using the Heal
skill but you receive no healing, you return to maximum
hit points after an extended rest.

(Emphasis mine)

 

[Legildur]

...I'm interested to see what Legildur may find...

Nah, I got nothin'...

Unless it is in the DMG, then it must be a houserule for my group.

What I did find in the PHB (p267) is the following:

...The encounter ends when the other side then takes a short rest or an extended rest.

 

[Jack99]

No, you can't use a surge after a short rest if you are unconscious. Otherwise, why would a character that is stabilized but doesn't gain any healing only recover hit points after an extended rest?

 

[MrMyth]

Actually, I think all you guys are wrong.

If no one can get the guy up, either through activating his Second Wind or otherwise explicitly healing him, he is out for 6 hours. Ouchies.

This came up on another forum, and the same quote was brought up... but I'm not so sure it is implied to be the only way for a character to get up, just another way for them to get up (if, say, he has no healing surges.) Note the passage before that that discusses how unconscious creatures that receive no healing are restored to 1 hitpoint and become conscious after a short rest.

Now, this is the section that deals more with unconscious enemies than PCs... but the key thing there is that it makes clear an unconscious character can take a short rest. And if they can do so, while it might set you to 1 hp automatically, I see no reason why the character couldn't also choose to spend surges at the end of the short rest to be at a higher total.

The real question is whether you can take a short rest while unconscious. I see no reason why you cannot - 4E is an exception based system, so it would typically call such a thing out if that was the case, and I do not see it doing so under the 'unconscious' entry. There is evidence as mentioned above that you can be unconscious and in a short rest - and if you could not, one would equally assume you could never take an extended rest either, and thus an unconscious character would only be able to be revived by someone else applying healing.

So... I see nothing in the rules that indicates unconscious characters cannot take a short rest, and at the end of it, spend healing surges and recover encounter powers as normal. I admit the rules aren't quite clearcut here, and don't make this claim outright - but the evidence seems to support it, and I think it is clearly against the intent of the game to have unconscious characters unable to be revived - even if they have tons of healing surges left - if you don't have a conscious leader able to apply Healing Words or other healing powers to them.

 

[MarkB]

So... I see nothing in the rules that indicates unconscious characters cannot take a short rest, and at the end of it, spend healing surges and recover encounter powers as normal.

Technically that may be so, but whether spending a healing surge uses an action or not, it is surely a conscious act - a character chooses when to spend a surge.

So how is he taking a conscious act if he isn't conscious?

 

[nightwyrm]

Technically that may be so, but whether spending a healing surge uses an action or not, it is surely a conscious act - a character chooses when to spend a surge.

So how is he taking a conscious act if he isn't conscious?

That phrasing does not imply a conscious act. For example, for Healing Word, "The Target can spend a healing surge and...etc. ", thus spending a healing surge must be available to an unconscious person. Almost all healing powers uses the phrase "...can spend a healing surge...", so unless you want to rule all such power to be ineffective on an unconscious character, spending healing surges does not require the character to be conscious.

 

[MarkB]

That phrasing does not imply a conscious act. For example, for Healing Word, "The Target can spend a healing surge and...etc. ", thus spending a healing surge must be available to an unconscious person. Almost all healing powers uses the phrase "...can spend a healing surge...", so unless you want to rule all such power to be ineffective on an unconscious character, spending healing surges does not require the character to be conscious.

Good point - and now that I think about it, characters don't even know what surges are, so they can't decide to spend one.

I guess it's a voluntary decision, but at the player level, not the character level.

 

[nightwyrm]

Good point - and now that I think about it, characters don't even know what surges are, so they can't decide to spend one.

I guess it's a voluntary decision, but at the player level, not the character level.

Yeah, "spending a healing surge" is probably a metagame level terminology rather than an in-game thing.

I'm still not getting what the big deal is about healing and short rests. Unless the whole party is unconsciously stabilized or only have time for 1 short rest, any unconscious character with surges left is gonna get healed up by his friends given enough time anyways.

 

[MrMyth]

I'm still not getting what the big deal is about healing and short rests. Unless the whole party is unconsciously stabilized or only have time for 1 short rest, any unconscious character with surges left is gonna get healed up by his friends given enough time anyways.

Well, the issue here is if the leader is the one unconscious - the argument being made is that the character can't heal (even with surges available) unless a power is used by an outside source to let them wake up.

If a character has their Second Wind available, than any PC could rouse them - but if a character has used it, there is no default way for other PCs to wake them up. And while Second Wind might return after a Short Rest, the entire argument at hand is that unconscious PCs cannot take a Short Rest. (Which I can't find anything in the rules that actually says that, but do agree that the healing rules could be a lot more clearly written.)

 

[S'mon]

I guess the question is whether the DM wants unconscious-but-stable characters to be able to take a short rest? On balance it seems a good idea to me to allow it. For one thing, IMO disallowing it makes too big a difference between PCs with and without their Second Wind. This could make players too reluctant to use SW. For a second, given 4e's structure it generally seems a good idea to let all PCs get back into action.

I suggest that forcing unconscious-but-stable PCs to take an extended rest before waking should be reserved for PCs with 0 healing surges left.